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New Oh, you'll know.
It'll be when you have to spout this "rationality" stuff at yourself to convince yourself your faith is true.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.
I have no faith.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New you have as much faith as the rest of us by yer standard
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New That's quite right.
No, wait.

The other thing.

"Wrong."


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New Every logical argument . . .
. . traced far enough back will be found based on a premise that is not itself supported by logic. You have simply buried your premises under so many layers of "facts" you hope you will never have to face them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New However.
There is a difference between intuition and superstition. The Choice Axiom, for instance, without which much of mathematics disappears, is (at least in practice) accepted without proof. Even in the presence of Zorn's lemma which is vastly less intuitive than the Choice Axiom, but which has been shown to be equivalent. But acceptance of the Choice Axiom without proof is completely different from binding one's self to superstitous nonsense about ghosts, holy or otherwise.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New <homer>
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
</homer>


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New And, you do :)
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Sure.
Just like if you look at things closely enough you see that stuff is really mostly nothing - e.g. [link|http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/scanning-tunneling-microscopes.html|I'm not touching this keyboard], the electron wave functions that are part of "me" are repelling the electron wave functions of this keyboard thingy. Rutherford showed that atoms are [link|http://www.chemsoc.org/timeline/pages/1911.html|mostly empty space].

You're right that it's hard, and perhaps impossible, to construct a logical framework that doesn't involve some basic assumptions. An important one in our understanding of the universe is that the same physical laws apply everywhere. We have no way to prove that, but assume it to construct a framework to understand our surroundings. So far, it has been a pretty good assumption.

As you say, it's important to realize the limitations of our understanding, but to argue (as some - not here - do) that because we can't prove everything we can't prove anything is sophistry.

Cheers,
Scott.
New You also have no evidence.
Which wins?


(Hint: In America, the tie goes to the runner...)
jb4
"It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment."
George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
     Why do you believe in ghosts? - (pwhysall) - (86)
         Of course all those proofs or disproofs would fail. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
             Sort of like proving Photography to a Blind person! -NT - (folkert)
             It's not "non-physical", though, is it? - (pwhysall)
         I grew up in a haunted house. - (imric) - (28)
             Naturally, the answer is "ghosts". - (pwhysall) - (27)
                 ROFL - (imric) - (24)
                     Re: ROFL - (pwhysall) - (15)
                         *shrug* whatever. - (imric) - (2)
                             You have no evidence. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Uh huh. Whatever. Don't blow a fuse. -NT - (imric)
                         Ah, your faith is touching . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (11)
                             Will it? - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                 Oh, you'll know. - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                     Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                         you have as much faith as the rest of us by yer standard -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                             That's quite right. - (pwhysall)
                                         Every logical argument . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                                             However. - (mmoffitt)
                                             <homer> - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                 And, you do :) -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             Sure. - (Another Scott)
                                         You also have no evidence. - (jb4)
                     sorry, thats anecdotal evidence :-) -NT - (boxley)
                     Could have been infrasound, perhaps. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                         It could have been - (imric) - (5)
                             I'm not doubting what you saw. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 Oh, I applaud skepticism. - (imric) - (3)
                                     might have been electronic field fluctuations - (boxley) - (2)
                                         That's EXACTLY what I was thinking! -NT - (bionerd)
                                         Heheh. - (imric)
                 Oh ye of little nonfaithlessness.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                     You're right. There is no out there - (bionerd)
         No. - (warmachine) - (4)
             nit - (boxley) - (3)
                 How so? -NT - (pwhysall) - (2)
                     start with this link - (boxley) - (1)
                         From advanced geometry to Star Trek. - (pwhysall)
         I don't know why some people do - (Seamus)
         Whadda ya mean science doesnt support "Ghosts"? - (bionerd) - (10)
             Become one with the universe - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                 care to prove that? - (boxley)
                 Re: Become one with the universe - (bionerd) - (2)
                     Not bad, Grasshopper - (Ashton) - (1)
                         Thanks. I'm getting there. -NT - (bionerd)
             You're falling prey to the woo-woos. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 I dont have to prove anything - (bionerd)
             The energy dissipates as heat - (warmachine) - (2)
                 what absolute rubbish - (boxley) - (1)
                     The Mac is NOT a PC... - (pwhysall)
         pope chimes in - (boxley) - (5)
             He needs to get out more. - (Another Scott)
             And how many former popes are burning brightly there? -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
             Like he knows anything -NT - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 he is a licensed exorcist - (boxley) - (1)
                     Those need psychiatry, not hocus pocus -NT - (tuberculosis)
         Define ghost - (orion) - (25)
             Go and investigate what entropy is... - (pwhysall) - (24)
                 Entropy means - (orion) - (23)
                     The part you seem to have missed - (JayMehaffey) - (22)
                         Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (orion) - (2)
                             Re: Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                 Re: Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (orion)
                         Maybe not. - (Another Scott) - (18)
                             Re: Maybe not. - (orion) - (17)
                                 This requires reversing time - (warmachine) - (16)
                                     wrong idea - (boxley) - (10)
                                         It just doesn't make sense to me. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                             Individual souls . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             but I do believe I existed before birth - (boxley) - (5)
                                                 I agree - (Lily) - (4)
                                                     I wish it were so - (orion) - (3)
                                                         It absolutely is so - (Lily) - (2)
                                                             Re: It absolutely is so - (orion) - (1)
                                                                 You can. - (pwhysall)
                                             What it could be - (orion)
                                         Interesting idea - (orion)
                                     From what I heard - (orion) - (4)
                                         Why are there no ghosts at traffic accident blackspots? -NT - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                             Re: Why are there no ghosts at traffic accident blackspots? - (orion) - (2)
                                                 What "neural net"? "Recycled" how? -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                 Neural net in air? - (warmachine)
         what does Peter and Malaysian Muslims have in common? - (boxley) - (4)
             I suppose that means the're not all bad! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 Every Humanist I've heard of agrees - (JayMehaffey)
             Still banging the "science is a religion" drum, eh? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 Im not claiming that, heh, its an measured observation -NT - (boxley)

I'll even go so far as to concede that today's postliterate teenagers are already sufficiently impaired by pop culture that anything that serves to make them even more scatterbrained is rather in the way of gilding the lily, and should not be encouraged.
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