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New Whadda ya mean science doesnt support "Ghosts"?
It's all about physics!

Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility of many worlds:

[link|http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/|http://plato.stanfor...es/qm-manyworlds/]
[link|http://www.station1.net/DouglasJones/many.htm|http://www.station1....lasJones/many.htm]

And look at the First Law of Thermodynamics. Energy can change from one form to another, but it can never be created or destroyed. When you get right down to it (way down, to subatomic particles), we are nothing but a buzzing, vibrating energy source. What happens to that energy when we die? What happens to the energy of consciousness? What happens to all that energy stored in the brain? It is very reasonable to me that some of this energy gets out of sync with the what we perceive to be our physical world. Just because we dont understand it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I dont understand the internet or fax machines or how the remote control for the TV works. But they're real, just the same.

New Become one with the universe
Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility of many worlds:

The many worlds of quantum mechanics are totally independent. No interaction between them, and nothing to suggest it is possible.

What happens to the energy of consciousness?

Consciousness itself is not an energy form, it is a process driven by energy. That energy becomes waste heat when you die.

In one sense people that say you become one with the universe when you die are right. But somehow I think they had something other then waste heat in mind.

Jay
New care to prove that?
"Consciousness itself is not an energy form, it is a process driven by energy." thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: Become one with the universe
Ahhh...nothing to suggest *YET* that the many worlds dont interact. 100 years from now scientists in all disciplines are going to look back and laugh at what we believe to be science fact.

I believe that consciousness and thoughts ARE energy. Look at a brain MRI and watch how the physical brain responds to thought. This is my truth, based on my research, education and experiences. I'm not going to subscribe to the beliefs of someone else simply because it's fashionable or comfortable to do so. Sorry.



New Not bad, Grasshopper
(And any who are trying to remain aloof from the popular myths du every-jour -?- wear that moniker as a Badge of Honour\ufffd.)

After 2.5 'careers' in Big Science\ufffd, I remain mystified at the Ayn-Randish mindsets of so many at the 'technician'-level, encountered within that milieu. Folks what have done not a microgram (Energy-equivalent; Einstein's will do) of the real (and Hard) 'Work'; that of exploring their *bloody-Own* inner dimensions, proclivities, habitual automatic-responses and the like -- and ever \ufffdchoose the simplistic/Obvious over the subtle.

(And apparently - also like All their 'music' blasted at \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd - to make damn sure that a moment of Solitude never. shall. be allowed to Occur. Either.)

...etc.


Carrion


\ufffd Quoth Rilke, for just one..

Always choose the difficult..

'Course... he never won a Nobel. Either. Oh well..
New Thanks. I'm getting there.
New You're falling prey to the woo-woos.
Go win yourself a Nobel prize and the undying admiration of your scientific colleagues.

Unless, of course, your "ghosts" theorem turns out to be a load of pseudoscientific toss, much like all that's gone before.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New I dont have to prove anything
I've seen and experienced. That's enough for me. I'll sit back and wait for science to catch up if it wants to. Until then, I am most happy to keep an open mind.
New The energy dissipates as heat
The energy of the brain is electrochemical within a complex system with electrical potential in the range of millivolts. Far, far too weak to do much beyond trigger other, electrochemical reactions, let alone create sound or light. Like a computer, it's a complex labyrinth of signals chasing each other so much, it mostly generates heat, and it doesn't do any useful work. Rather, it controls other organs that do useful work. You'd get better effects from the death of muscles but that's also too weak to generate detectable light or sound. Instead, the electrochemical potential just gets wasted as heat and the worms and bacteria consume the rest of chemical potential.

If you think the clever synergy of the brain must do something, you watch too much Star Trek. The effectiveness of synergy is tied up in the system that supports it. The state and synergy of a car engine cannot, even theoretically, be copied to a jet engine. They're sets of parts with different systems of interaction. A jet engine has no direct translation of piston position and velocity. The clever energy of the brain means sod all without the neural net it sits in. The electrical state of a PC just doesn't go into a Mac, let alone other electrical devices, let alone anything else.

Of course, a car engine can input energy into another system but it must be transferred in particular ways that the receiving system can inherently accept. A car engine can directly drive a dynamo but not a radio. An engine can indirectly drive a radio but every single intermediate stage must directly compatible with the next. Ghosts from brain energy has the problem of how synapse electrochemistry can convert into anything else besides waste heat. And it still has to get out the head. It could drive muscles in its death throes but nothing sophisticated will come from that. It could escape via lots of electrodes shoved in the brain but that doesn't happen.

In short, ghosts from brain energy must be complex systems that're compatible with human neural nets, can get it out of the skull naturally, amplify the extremely weak signals and be sustained by energy not yet detectable.

Misapplied, pre-historic brain functions, collective mythologies and false memories are starting to look like a simpler explanation.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New what absolute rubbish
"electrical state of a PC just doesn't go into a Mac" the Mac is a PC, at least mine is.
that neural net doesnt work on its own it needs a driver, man is a ball of snot, water, feces and bacteria that is driven via interaction of the mind. When the organism dies the mind goes elsewhere, the brain remains behind.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New The Mac is NOT a PC...
...because PCs have a BIOS.

That technical nit aside, it's not at all obvious that the mind goes somewhere. Man has spent considerable time and effort (despite all evidence to the contrary) convincing himself that this lifetime is not all there is - presumably in an effort to comfort himself that the universe isn't a harsh, uncaring place.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
     Why do you believe in ghosts? - (pwhysall) - (86)
         Of course all those proofs or disproofs would fail. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
             Sort of like proving Photography to a Blind person! -NT - (folkert)
             It's not "non-physical", though, is it? - (pwhysall)
         I grew up in a haunted house. - (imric) - (28)
             Naturally, the answer is "ghosts". - (pwhysall) - (27)
                 ROFL - (imric) - (24)
                     Re: ROFL - (pwhysall) - (15)
                         *shrug* whatever. - (imric) - (2)
                             You have no evidence. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Uh huh. Whatever. Don't blow a fuse. -NT - (imric)
                         Ah, your faith is touching . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (11)
                             Will it? - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                 Oh, you'll know. - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                     Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                         you have as much faith as the rest of us by yer standard -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                             That's quite right. - (pwhysall)
                                         Every logical argument . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                                             However. - (mmoffitt)
                                             <homer> - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                 And, you do :) -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             Sure. - (Another Scott)
                                         You also have no evidence. - (jb4)
                     sorry, thats anecdotal evidence :-) -NT - (boxley)
                     Could have been infrasound, perhaps. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                         It could have been - (imric) - (5)
                             I'm not doubting what you saw. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 Oh, I applaud skepticism. - (imric) - (3)
                                     might have been electronic field fluctuations - (boxley) - (2)
                                         That's EXACTLY what I was thinking! -NT - (bionerd)
                                         Heheh. - (imric)
                 Oh ye of little nonfaithlessness.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                     You're right. There is no out there - (bionerd)
         No. - (warmachine) - (4)
             nit - (boxley) - (3)
                 How so? -NT - (pwhysall) - (2)
                     start with this link - (boxley) - (1)
                         From advanced geometry to Star Trek. - (pwhysall)
         I don't know why some people do - (Seamus)
         Whadda ya mean science doesnt support "Ghosts"? - (bionerd) - (10)
             Become one with the universe - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                 care to prove that? - (boxley)
                 Re: Become one with the universe - (bionerd) - (2)
                     Not bad, Grasshopper - (Ashton) - (1)
                         Thanks. I'm getting there. -NT - (bionerd)
             You're falling prey to the woo-woos. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 I dont have to prove anything - (bionerd)
             The energy dissipates as heat - (warmachine) - (2)
                 what absolute rubbish - (boxley) - (1)
                     The Mac is NOT a PC... - (pwhysall)
         pope chimes in - (boxley) - (5)
             He needs to get out more. - (Another Scott)
             And how many former popes are burning brightly there? -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
             Like he knows anything -NT - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 he is a licensed exorcist - (boxley) - (1)
                     Those need psychiatry, not hocus pocus -NT - (tuberculosis)
         Define ghost - (orion) - (25)
             Go and investigate what entropy is... - (pwhysall) - (24)
                 Entropy means - (orion) - (23)
                     The part you seem to have missed - (JayMehaffey) - (22)
                         Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (orion) - (2)
                             Re: Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                 Re: Then quantum mechanics breaks down reversibility? - (orion)
                         Maybe not. - (Another Scott) - (18)
                             Re: Maybe not. - (orion) - (17)
                                 This requires reversing time - (warmachine) - (16)
                                     wrong idea - (boxley) - (10)
                                         It just doesn't make sense to me. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                             Individual souls . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             but I do believe I existed before birth - (boxley) - (5)
                                                 I agree - (Lily) - (4)
                                                     I wish it were so - (orion) - (3)
                                                         It absolutely is so - (Lily) - (2)
                                                             Re: It absolutely is so - (orion) - (1)
                                                                 You can. - (pwhysall)
                                             What it could be - (orion)
                                         Interesting idea - (orion)
                                     From what I heard - (orion) - (4)
                                         Why are there no ghosts at traffic accident blackspots? -NT - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                             Re: Why are there no ghosts at traffic accident blackspots? - (orion) - (2)
                                                 What "neural net"? "Recycled" how? -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                 Neural net in air? - (warmachine)
         what does Peter and Malaysian Muslims have in common? - (boxley) - (4)
             I suppose that means the're not all bad! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 Every Humanist I've heard of agrees - (JayMehaffey)
             Still banging the "science is a religion" drum, eh? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 Im not claiming that, heh, its an measured observation -NT - (boxley)

Caveat emptor.
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