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New On a slightly different tack
Is there anything at all to suggest that there's anything in this world, food or otherwise, that can 'make you gay'?
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New there is nature and nurture
have a female family friend who decidedly likes women as much as I do. It is very obvious that she is a born in. I have met somewhat asexual people who fall into the gay category more out of ennui than true desire. They decided for whatever reason to be ambivalent about the sex of their sexual partner.
Oh I forgot,
made you look :-)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Expand Edited by boxley Dec. 21, 2006, 08:04:09 PM EST
New I'm starting to see people accepting it's very complex.
Whilst I haven't been much attention to the latest in the debate, what I do notice is that claims are getting hedgy. Various factors 'contribute' (or 'possibly contribute') one way or the other.

I'm not surprised. Literature about sexual dysfunction has shown that experts in the field have known for years that sexual proclivities is not something you can pin down to a few simple definitions. The mass media try to define what Being Gay means and what Being Straight means, but people don't like being pigeonholed, even if they don't like the 'other' label. What is 'Straight'? What is 'Gay'? Labels are convenient, but over-broad a lot of the time.

Sidenote: I can understand how people can find the psychology of it a fascinating field of study. :-)

Wade.
"Don't give up!"
[link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] · [link|http://yceran.org/|website]
New Er?
Why would you look in the literature on sexual dysfunction to get information about homosexuality?

Gay isn't dysfunctional.


Peter
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New POV
"Functional" sex is sex that leads to more people.

Everything else is a side effect.

New Might have been true a million years ago.
We've moved on since then.

Arguably.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New Doubt it
Feels good - do more - make more people.
Causes oxytocin release, pair bonding chemical, creates an environment where people stay together, which makes it more likely kids will survive.

The only way we will "move on" past this is to allow the end of the species.

While we (at least I and you) accept that individuals should be able to do whatever mutually agreed upon act feels right for them, from an evolutionary perspective sex that does not create babies is a dead end, ie: non-functional, ie: dysfunctional.

Of course, sometimes it makes sense for a group as a whole. I seem to recall an increase in homosexuality in some species when a population density hits, which could be an evolutionary correction to accommodate limited resources.
New Nah.
We have sex because we like it, not because we want to reproduce. Although some people have sex to reproduce, and that's cool, too.

Once you're at that stage, as long as it's safe, legal and doesn't frighten the horses, it's functional: we're not here just to reproduce, we're also here to enjoy ourselves and do what interests us.

In theory, anyhow.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Expand Edited by pwhysall Dec. 22, 2006, 10:09:33 AM EST
New But WHY do we like it?
New Why do we like sugar?
Just because something was advantageous from an evolutionary standpoint at one time, doesn't mean that it continues to be the case later.

IOW, it can be argued that we're now more than a bag of [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene|selfish genes], but one can also argue the other way:

Dawkins proposes that genes that help the organism, which they happen to be in, to survive and reproduce tend to also improve their own chances of being passed on, so \ufffd most of the time \ufffd "successful" genes will also be beneficial to the organism. An example of this might be a gene that protects the organism against a disease, which helps the gene spread and also helps the organism. There are other times when the implicit interests of the vehicle and replicator are in conflict, such as the genes behind certain male spiders' instinctive mating behaviour, which increase the organism's inclusive fitness by allowing it to reproduce, but shorten its life by exposing it to the risk of being eaten by the cannibalistic female. Another good example is the existence of segregation distortion genes that are detrimental to their host but nonetheless propagate themselves at its expense. Likewise, the existence of junk DNA that provides no benefit to its host, once a puzzle, can be more easily explained. A more controversial example is aging, in which an old organism's death makes room for its offspring, benefiting its genes at the cost of the organism.

These examples might suggest that there is a power-struggle between genes and their host. In fact, the claim is that there isn't much of a struggle because the genes usually win without a fight. Only if the organism becomes intelligent enough to understand its own interests, as distinct from those of its genes, can there be true conflict. An example of this would be a person deciding not to breed because they'd be miserable raising children, even though their genes lose out due to this decision.

When looked at from the point of view of gene selection, many biological phenomena that, in prior models, were difficult to explain become easier to understand. In particular, phenomena such as kin selection and eusociality, where organisms act altruistically, against their individual interests (in the sense of health, safety or personal reproduction) to help related organisms reproduce, can be explained as genes helping copies of themselves in other bodies to replicate. Interestingly, the "selfish" actions of genes lead to unselfish actions by organisms.

Prior to the 1960s, it was common for such behaviour to be explained in terms of group selection, where the benefits to the organism or even population were supposed to account for the popularity of the genes responsible for the tendency towards that behaviour. This was shown not to be an evolutionarily stable strategy, in that it would only take a single individual with a tendency towards more selfish behaviour to undermine a population otherwise filled only with the gene for altruism towards non-kin.


I haven't read the book, but what I know of it makes some sense but also strikes me as assigning a little too much volition to bits of DNA. While biology certainly works to have fitter genes survive, at the level of individuals much more comes into play (good and bad choices, good and bad luck, emotions, etc., etc.).

Most of us consciously worry much more about our immediate families than about cousins or aunts and uncles that may share a great many genes with us. I worry much more about my step mother (who I likely share few familial genes with) than I do about my cousins (who I haven't seen in decades). Since I won't be having any children, it's rather academic, but I think I'm not that much of an outlier in regarding personal closeness as being more important than shared genes. So I think replication of familial genes was once a much stronger imperative than it is now; witness the story of [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038:8-10;&version=31;|Onan]. Sex has much more to do with things other than reproduction these days. Parachute jumping, or eating lots of sugar, or driving fast feels good, but it's hard to argue that it's a beneficial evolutionary strategy these days. :-)

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Dec. 22, 2006, 10:43:38 AM EST
New Signifies concentrated easily available energy
New Doesn't matter any more.
Key point: we're not here just to reproduce.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New are you implying a reason for being or being reasonable?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Soyou're trying to move this to Politics, then?

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New I was kinda citing my sources.
I wasn't saying homosexuality is dysfunctional. Research on sexual dysfunction has to understand all ranges of sexual behaviour to understand the dysfunctional aspects.

Wade.
"Don't give up!"
[link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] · [link|http://yceran.org/|website]
New Re: On a slightly different tack
[link|http://www2.b3ta.com/spidermanwillmakeyougay/|Spiderman], obviously.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New as a $3 bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
     soy makes you gay - (boxley) - (23)
         We argued about this a couple years ago . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (20)
             not really, dont like tofu or soy milk - (boxley) - (19)
                 No, you were talking about . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (18)
                     got the conversation now - (boxley) - (17)
                         On a slightly different tack - (Meerkat) - (16)
                             there is nature and nurture - (boxley)
                             I'm starting to see people accepting it's very complex. - (static) - (12)
                                 Er? - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                     POV - (crazy) - (9)
                                         Might have been true a million years ago. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                             Doubt it - (crazy) - (6)
                                                 Nah. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                                     But WHY do we like it? -NT - (crazy) - (4)
                                                         Why do we like sugar? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                             Signifies concentrated easily available energy -NT - (crazy)
                                                         Doesn't matter any more. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                             are you implying a reason for being or being reasonable? -NT - (boxley)
                                             Soyou're trying to move this to Politics, then? -NT - (imric)
                                     I was kinda citing my sources. - (static)
                             Re: On a slightly different tack - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 as a $3 bill -NT - (boxley)
         So why is this thread in this forum? - (CRConrad) - (1)
             Yes. -NT - (imric)

Their business was zero and it was shrinking.
79 ms