Post #273,604
11/21/06 3:55:37 AM
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Well - our civilization
is based on petrochemicals - particularly plastics. So what do we do with the non-renewable resource that is the source of these chemicals? Why, we burn it as fuel, of course.
There ARE good reasons for ethanol; it's renewable, it reduces use of foreign sources of petroleum, and while the cost of feed may be rising now - if it makes more farms financially viable, GOOD. We can do with less suburban sprawl, and more farms.
Having said this, I'd like to see a closer look taken at the Thermal Conversion Process. Organic garbage-to-fuel (without the fermentation or chemical dances) would be a very good thing - both for energy independence, and for getting rid of much of our garbage.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #273,606
11/21/06 4:34:13 AM
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No.
Some of that's based on the days when organic chemistry was considered organized witchcraft. I remember a science fiction story c 1960 where visitors from (time/space? I don't remember) remarked that we were burning our irreplacable petroleum to fly airplanes.
Organic chemistry has come a long way since that story was written and plastics manufacturers would just as soon start with natural gas and build their molecules up rather than crack them down - much better control. Methane from just about any source would work fine, thank you.
Farms viable? You're lost in space, sir. This ethanol thing is pushed by ADM, Cargill and the big corporate farming companies. This isn't your friendly local farmer, these folks are into "slash and burn agriculture" over vast expanses of flat land - they've pumped down groundwater through much of the central U.S. that will take hundreds of years to replace.
This whole unsustainable industrial farming thing is going to go BOOM!, and guess what? It's going to go boom long before we're out of oil - no more fossil groundwater. The consumer will be left paying more and more until 75% of your income goes to food just like in any other third world country.
Fortunately we don't have that sort of agriculture in California - we simply don't have the vast expanses of flat land with fossil groundwater they need. Sure, we have water problems, but ours are solvable.
As for thermal conversion of garbage - that's a really good idea, but guess what? ADM, Cargill and the oil companies aren't lobbying for that, in fact they've long been lobbying against it, along with other alternative energy development. "Nothing beats the power of cubic money." Ethanol provides a perfect distraction from this sort of thing.
Ethanol as fuel is a scam - pure and simple. You can drink the cool aid if you wish, but in the end it's you who'll pick up the costs. Hope you like Textured Vegetable Protein (brought to you by ADM and Cargill, of course) 'cause steak isn't going to be on your menu.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #273,611
11/21/06 6:26:23 AM
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I remember that phrase in an early story, too
(But well before that, as a tyke - a Capt. Marvel comic was the best intro to conservation/waste I've seen, since. It has stayed with me - would love to run down a copy.. And when I got to physics, could calculate things: the story seemed even more prescient.)
But remember how few grokked the point re pure electric cars - how few ever connected the power-line losses and fossil-fuel use in the power plants? Never mind the hidden costs of producing, replacing, disposing of the batterie$. Ditto ~~ rosy Hydrogen panaceas: mere 'storage batteries' all.
Shall we guess at the %Muricans who today have an elementary understanding of basic organic (or even inorganic) chemistry - who would comprehend your clearly stated summary?
All ADM, Exxon, and the rest of the corporatocracy need, including the bizness/lawyers of Congress - to maintain these scams is Persistence of Dumbth. IMO you can take that presumption to the bank. The older biz-types can't learn; their kids' habits are counter to learning more than simplest slogans about how things work.
The curse of those who did learn stuff: to Watch this-all, note the aggregate wealth spinning into those fewer and fewer pockets. Until the gated compounds are under siege. You needn't be literate to plunder this culture - besides, antiintellectual genes characterize the country. Smart kids discerned That - early-on.
By the time of mobs/torches, it will all be about vengeance; way too-late to restore education (beyond MBA-grade marketing puffery and brand-name recognition) in time for a reintroduction of civilization here. Maybe the Brits' yout is racing even faster? to the bottom - per Box's link. Pity, that - one would have hoped for better from the Sceptered Isle.
Only counter to this dismal scenario that I can see is: some entirely Unexpected event. That is, the textbook *SHOCK*. Logic certainly won't count for shit (even before the guns come out, in also-predictably petulant frustration.) We could get lucky. The growth of casinos makes clear: we'll go with that fantasy; it's all we've got left after 5 years of Effective soul-deadening ignorant cant.
ADM rubs it in before-after PBS news.. with a cloying, soothing sing-song about people eating soy for breakfast. It's not even worth the trouble to register a complaint.. you'd have to explain, at elementary school level. Pointless.
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Post #273,615
11/21/06 7:42:58 AM
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Bah.
Organic chemistry has come a long way since that story was written and plastics manufacturers would just as soon start with natural gas and build their molecules up rather than crack them down - much better control. Methane from just about any source would work fine, thank you. Then gee - why is it they still use petroleum, I wonder? Could it be, I don't know, sheer volume of production? Could it be, maybe, price? And - natural gas? Oh, no, we don't burn THAT now, do we? This ethanol thing is pushed by ADM, Cargill and the big corporate farming companies. This isn't your friendly local farmer So what? Prices go up, margins for independent farmers go up too. Right now, they NEED that. They get to survive. Mind you, the groundwater problem is VERY real. THAT problem exists just for food production now. Better get used to "Textured Vegetable Protein" in any case. ADM, Cargill and the oil companies aren't lobbying for that, in fact they've long been lobbying against it So what, again? The company developing it is NOT public, and cannot be bought out and dismantled by those creeps. The research isn't funded by the government, though one of the few GOOD things Bush did was to give a pittance to them - probably because the resulting product is much like light sweet crude. Remember, what the oil companies want is stability for the source of their oil. If TCP can get them that, at prices cheaper than ME (or tar sands) oil, without the costs of exploration, what do YOU think they will do? In a fight between ADM & Cargill and all the oil companies, well, I'd bet on the oil companies.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #273,621
11/21/06 11:51:45 AM
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Y'all can debate this at the next bash.
[link|http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=1251&q=&page=all|There will be an expert present].
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #273,651
11/22/06 12:14:13 AM
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*shrug* Biodiesel is another thing altogether...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #273,683
11/22/06 10:58:37 AM
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Given the potential wastestreams, though
it makes more sense that wasting energy to convert corn. Using tallow, trash and human waste as feedstock will create a little less debate...since I don't know anyone (except maybe andrew G) that will actually eat that stuff :-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #274,024
11/27/06 12:14:12 AM
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Oh, aye
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #273,625
11/21/06 1:24:37 PM
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Bah Bah Sheep Farts
\r\nThen gee - why is it they still use petroleum, I wonder? Could it be, I don't know, sheer volume of production? Could it be, maybe, price? And - natural gas? Oh, no, we don't burn THAT now, do we? \r\n\r\nPlastics account for only a few percent of petroleum consumption, and the plastics industry will take what they can get cheap without regard to source. Here's what they actually use according to the [link|http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/petroleumproducts.htm| Department of Energy]. Note that it's pretty much all gasses or light stuff easily made into gasses and a lot of it is waste products.\r\n\r\n Naphtha, one of the basic feedstocks, is a liquid obtained from the refining of crude oil.\r\n\r\nPetrochemical feedstocks also include products recovered from natural gas, and refinery gases (ethane, propane, and butane). Still other feedstocks include ethylene, propylene, normal- and iso-butylenes, butadiene, and aromatics such as benzene, toluene, and xylene. These feedstocks are produced by processing products such as ethane (separated from natural gas), distillates, naphthas, and heavier oils. \r\n\r\nIndustry data show that the chemical industry uses nearly 1.5 million barrels per day of natural gas liquids and liquefied refinery gases as petrochemical feedstocks and plant fuel. 10 Demand for textiles, explosives, elastomers, plastics, drugs, and synthetic rubber during World War II increased the petrochemical use of refinery gases. Gas byproducts from the production of gasoline are an important source of many feedstocks. \r\n\r\nThe point you missed is there is no magic imperative between petroleum and plastics. Methane from sheep farts would do fine if it was cheaper.\r\n\r\n So what? Prices go up, margins for independent farmers go up too. Right now, they NEED that. They get to survive. Mind you, the groundwater problem is VERY real. THAT problem exists just for food production now. Better get used to "Textured Vegetable Protein" in any case.\r\n \r\n\r\n Some farms will be helped, some forced off their land by the massive scale needed. Depends on what they grow on what kind of land. More of your food will be shipped from California. \r\n\r\n Corn production for fuel will depend heavily on genetically engineered corn. Anyone who thinks this won't contaminate the entire food corn production in short order is either on the agrabusiness payroll or should seriously think about not having children as a favor to the gene pool. \r\n\r\n As for that industrial product called TVP (Textured Vegetable Protein), it's not at all natural, made mostly from genetically modified soybeans, and not particularly healthy. A moments search on the Internet will provide plenty of articles of which [link|http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/articles/textured-vegetable-protein.php|Savy Vegetarian's] is relatively quite mild. By itself TVP is barely edible so it'll be inhanced with artificial flavors and colors and other industrial products. Enjoy. \r\n\r\n So what, again? The company developing it [TCP] is NOT public, and cannot be bought out and dismantled by those creeps. The research isn't funded by the government, though one of the few GOOD things Bush did was to give a pittance to them - probably because the resulting product is much like light sweet crude. \r\n\r\n Such naiveté just takes one's breath away. They don't have to buy it out, it'll be given to them. These projects are nothing more than the energy companies externalizing their research and development costs. "We won't need this for a long time and it's high risk too, so let the taxpayers pay for it and if it comes up with anything useful we'll take it and screw 'em with it, but not before we're done with the current screwing." \r\n\r\n In a fight between ADM & Cargill and all the oil companies, well, I'd bet on the oil companies. \r\n\r\n A fight between? Good grief man, they're in bed together - where's this fight going to come from? \r\n\r\n Manufacturing motor fuel from food is a scam. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n [link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #273,630
11/21/06 4:51:55 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #273629 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=273629|ICLRPD]
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
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Post #273,649
11/22/06 12:11:51 AM
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Wrong. TCP is a process owned by one company
That WANTS to be an oil company - and IS, on a very small scale. They know what it could be worth, thats why they AREN'T in bed with the current megaliths.
As for ADM, Cargill, etc being in bed with oil companies, forcing a bad solution forward to benefit the oil companies - PROVE IT. Scorch marks on your tinfoil hat don't count, even if they look like the Virgin Mary.
And as to farmers being forced off their land? When margins go up? Only if the gummint confiscates it for emminent domain. Farmers don't typically leave their land when they have a choice. Even if offered LARGE amounts of cash for their land. You'll have to prove to me, without simple assertion, that this will happen.
As to 'geneered corn - thats ANOTHER problem, like the fossil water problem, that doesn't need ethanol/fuel issues to exist.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #273,676
11/22/06 10:10:06 AM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #273675 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=273675|ICLRPD]
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
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