be careful what you wish for....

Post #267,743

9/16/06 1:38:32 PM

in determining what is allowed and what is not, will set the precident for future Presidents, and I guarentee they will use it for items not to your liking.

Currently, the language is vague...allowing a popular or powerful president a lot of latitude. In providing strict guidelines (or stricter guidelines) a Clinton (or their like) could use it to their own end.

Post #267,752

by bepatient

9/16/06 3:46:11 PM

9/16/06 3:50:53 PM

I am completely fine with that.

You seem to misinterpret my point. Aside from this being a grandiose lesson in mental masturbation by a bunch of beaurocrats...clarification of these terms is >legally advisable<. Now that we have a press corp that is hell bent on taking anybody down that has a hint of celebrity (stars, athletes, politicians)...I can't say I would blame any one for wanting to make sure the rules were very clear.

Clinton made an art form of leveraging vague language. Hell, he pretty much had everyone agreeing that getting a hummer wasn't sex.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Edited by bepatient Sept. 16, 2006, 03:50:53 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #267,808

by Ashton

9/17/06 5:58:53 AM

It sure as hell ain't that churchly fornication thing

but yes - obviously whatever-it-was, it was vastly more serious a High Crime and Misdemeanor than say - lying a country into an unlawful invasion of another country.

Maybe we shoulda impeached the bastard..

Nahhhh, that extremist stuff would be laughed away; what are we, Stupid?

Post #267,810

by Silverlock

9/17/06 8:07:17 AM

What about when the "clarification" is used on US troops?

Still fine? Waterboarding. It's not just for terrorists* anymore.

*They're terrorists until we let them go and say "Sorry, my bad".

-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.

Post #267,812

by bepatient

9/17/06 10:08:56 AM

Considering the alternative

which is beheading...I'd say waterboarding would be a vacation.

We are the only side playing by these rules...in case you've missed me saying that for the umpteenth time.

Next time we go to war with France...I'd say subjecting our soldiers to waterboarding might then be an issue.

Look down the threat list. China didn't sign..and won't abide. N Korea. Iran. Darfur. Anybody on that list that you think would not, regardless of what the convention says...torture our military?

And yes...the larger issue is innocents trapped in the system.

And then there are those that worry that people just won't like us because of this. Sorry, they already don't like us...and its not what we do to prisoners making that happen...its our inconsistency in ME policy and our continued support of Israel that does that...and in 2 years I'm sure, regardless of this argument...that we'll change policies again.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,826

by pwhysall

9/17/06 11:09:13 AM

What other people do doesn't matter. What we do does.

The whole damn point of this exercise in global force-projection is that we have the moral high ground.

The minute we lower ourselves to "their" level, we've lost, no matter what the military outcome.

If we don't win the moral victory, we've won nothing at all.

Post #267,838

by imric

9/17/06 1:31:10 PM

Hear, hear!

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,843

by bepatient

9/17/06 2:49:18 PM

No argument.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,934

by mmoffitt

9/18/06 12:05:21 PM

No.

All we have to do is "further refine meanings." Then we've got the high ground again.

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #267,836

by imric

9/17/06 1:30:30 PM

The altenative to waterboarding is beheading?

Bullshit.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,844

by bepatient

9/17/06 2:50:28 PM

Who would be capturing our troops?

Are you telling me that Danny Pearl wouldn't have rather been subjected to waterboarding?

BS yourself.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,851

by imric

9/17/06 5:13:31 PM

So friggin' what?

Yo set up a false dichotomy.

So the 'choices' are waterboarding or beheading? If we don't want beheadings, we gotta waterboard?

Bullshit.

Since waterboarding is less bad than beheading, and the enemy used beheading, then waterboarding is OK?

Bullshit again.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,865

by bepatient

9/17/06 10:12:07 PM

You are missing the point.

and i didn't set up any dichotomy. Go up the thread.

What about when the "clarification" is used on US troops?

Others here are talking about US interrogators using this technique. My retort >to this title< was simply that captives of the current enemy would be lucky to be treated to the worst we have to offer...as the current MO of the enemy is beheading.

Follow along.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,868

by imric

9/17/06 10:28:06 PM

FOLLOW ALONG?

I don't give a damn about what some other folks, current adversaries or future, do. It doesn't excuse us, it doesn't excuse our current administration's attempt to legalize and codify coercive abuse.

And have no illusions about that. By codifying abuse into law, that makes any changes a matter of degree, rather than category. Convenient. Changes of who is an 'enemy combatant' will also be able to be changed. Handy.

Follow along. Or wake up.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,869

by bepatient

9/17/06 11:05:49 PM

lest I have to repeat myself again

I have stated, repeatedly...I disagree with a great portion of the proposal...but I understand the desire to make it happen. This is not an endorsement. My statement has been ... the fact that we are having this discussion at all demonstrates superiority to the current and likely future enemies this country will face...and even if we "codify abuse"...that abuse is nothing near what our men at arms will face if captured.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,870

by imric

9/17/06 11:34:53 PM

9/17/06 11:39:53 PM

And that doesn't matter, dude.

None of it does.

"that abuse is nothing near what our men at arms will face if captured" is a rationalisation - and a weak one. 'I'm not as bad as he is' does not in any way mean 'I'm not bad'. The fact that our current abuses aren't as bad as our current foes' gives me no comfort at all. The fact that you are presenting that rationalisation as a 'statement' bothers me.

It should bother you too, Bill.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Sept. 17, 2006, 11:39:53 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #267,872

by bepatient

9/17/06 11:47:58 PM

Its not a rationalization

its simply a fact.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,874

by Silverlock

9/18/06 12:02:46 AM

Allow me to repeat myself

Don't be evil

-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.

Post #267,876

by bepatient

9/18/06 12:03:23 AM

Why not, its more fun.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,878

by Silverlock

9/18/06 12:08:49 AM

You're troll-fu has been weak for awhile now

Just look at this thread.

-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.

Post #267,879

by bepatient

9/18/06 12:16:52 AM

Haven't hit the warning track yet.

Have to have goals, you know.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,895

by imric

9/18/06 7:09:34 AM

If it is a simple fact,

then why do you repeat it - unless you are trying to use it?

That 'simple fact' is being used by you as a rationalisation.

Riddle me this: Do YOU think that any level of coercive abuse should be codified into law?

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,898

by jbrabeck

9/18/06 8:20:04 AM

I think we've missed his point

He has said he doesn't agree with it, just at he understands why Shrub wants to "clarify" the GC.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)

Post #267,902

by Another Scott

9/18/06 8:33:54 AM

Not quite.

As I've read him, Bill thinks it's important that the law be clarified so that there are sharp legal boundaries between permissible and impermissible interrogation techniques. He disagrees with other aspects of Bush's proposal (and I do as well).

I disagree; I think the present language of the GC is quite clear.

If I've misread him, I'm apparently not the only one.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #267,904

by bepatient

9/18/06 8:43:46 AM

Nope, you haven't.

Maybe the post to Imric will clarify even that.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,903

by bepatient

9/18/06 8:42:48 AM

but I don't have to worry about being prosecuted nor having my employees prosecuted based on someones definition of humiliating or degrading. And the point earlier, ridiculous as it may seem, still stands. Does Sadam not being afforded 5 star accomodation reach the point of humiliating? Who decides?

The fact that we've become a headhunter culture for politicians, celebrities and the like means simply that they've got to think of these things not only in the vaguarity of simply "we, the people" but also in the very specific me and mine. This is why I've stated repeatedly that I understand the "need".

Personally, I'm more of an eye for eye person. If we catch the guys that stood on video and beheaded a captive...I'd stand them in front of the camera and do it back...only slower.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,906

by imric

9/18/06 8:59:26 AM

No, it doesn't.

The point does NOT stand.

Especially that one.

So - NOT providing luxury is abuse? Nonsense. Using that as an argument for providing a framework for 'acceptable' coercive abuse? Ridiculous.

There is no part of this thing that is not evil.

That politicians want to be able to do it and not get in trouble for it is a measure of just how bad it is.

There is no excuse. There is no reason. Your statements are along the lines of "Well, since we gotta have abuse, we have to protect the people ordering it"

We do NOT have to have abuse.

We do NOT have to protect the bastards ordering it.

We do NOT have to fall to the level of our enemies to oppose them.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #267,913

by bepatient

9/18/06 9:27:22 AM

All valid points

but again, no one has given any defintion of what techniques are being discussed.

And Sadam was a head of state? Making him stay in a 10 by 10 would be, for some, humiliating. Yes it is a "stretch"...but it is not out of legal bounds in the current writing. Depending on culture, sticking a rubber glove up someone's tail may be considered degrading. Again, not protected in current writing.

So you keep insisting that I support torture or at least the protection of those ordering same...when all I continue to do is provide examples of where being nice to someone could still land those who are responsible in jail for doing nothing, hence understanding WHY they desire said cover and why it may be necessary. If for any other reason, removing the gray that allows GWB to come on TV and say "we had lawyers review what we did and it was legal"

My take.

Should the US CIA use waterboarding to gain info?

No.

Should they cut off fingers?

No.

Should they strip guys and stick them in a meat locker?

No.

Ok??

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,917

by Another Scott

9/18/06 10:38:43 AM

Please quote what you're responding to.

You've said (above) that I'm wrong about my characterization of your posts, but you haven't done it with specificity. It seems to me that, in this reply, you're arguing that the law needs to be clarified, but you said that I'm wrong in that characterization.

Please lead me along step by step, because I still don't see where I'm wrong about what you're saying.

Or, just let this thread die and we'll try another day as we seem to be going round and round at the moment.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #267,927

by bepatient

9/18/06 11:49:06 AM

Your problem is with who you attribute the desire.

I >personally< don't care and >personally< find the need for this troubling. I also >personally< disagree with nearly all of the evidence rules proposed for tribunals.

I do, however, understand the administrations needs. Why the dichotomy? Because I don't anticipate ever being in a position ot be prosecuted based on vague language. Those in power have a completely different set of requirements than I, because they ARE in that position.

So, in short, I don't think it necessary, but I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE of those who do.

If, in my position as a manager, I find myself in a position where my subordinates could be fired/jailed/reprimanded for >doing their job<..based on legal language that lacks specificity...I would likely AT LEAST MAKE THE ATTEMPT...to clarify the language before giving up altogether.

That is my point.

And some of the techniques used, though questionable, I do not think qualify as degrading or humiliating. Waterboarding is not one of those techniques. I believe that to be across the line...but >thinking< this and >prosecuting< this are separate. Which is why I keep giving the silly examples that I do. Someone, somewhere may think differently than we do...so applying those types of standards is inherently troubling, maybe not as troubling as the fact we are asking to make them ok, but troubling none the less.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,962

by jbrabeck

9/18/06 1:39:38 PM

That's what I was trying to say

back here [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=267898|267898] when I said I thought we had missed your point. I didn't think it was YOUR opinion you were arguing, but you understood WHY it was being suggested.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)

Post #267,963

by bepatient

9/18/06 1:45:44 PM

And my response was affirmative to you

a negative affirmative, anyway ;-)

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #267,837

by Simon_Jester

9/17/06 1:30:56 PM

Technically speaking....

we aren't playing by the rules either.

Welcome to IWETHEY!