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New So what's UFAM?
I got a little "Mainframe 101" class from one of the graybeards on Friday. He said that UFAM had been tested against every new thing for the past 20 years and continues to win on transaction-processing performance. This, he said, is why the frame is in no danger of going away.

Anything to the claim?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New you sure he said ufam?
[link|http://www.google.com/search?q=UFAM&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0|http://www.google.co...h&start=0&start=0]
a university in brazil?
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New google UFAM mainframe
[link|http://www.google.com/search?q=UFAM%2bmainframe|UFAM+mainframe]
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Appears to be a file format?
Not sure why a file format would make that big a difference in TP.
New My (limited) understanding
In the client server world, applications use a DB engine -- Oracle, SQL Server, Postgres -- which is itself an app that stores data on a filesystem. In the MF world, the app and data are pretty much considered the same thing -- some of the frame guys here talk about "the Foo database" when in fact they mean the entire set of data and all code for accessing it. In that environment, the "filesystem" has as much impact on performance as the DB engine and its associated tuning parameters.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Wasn't that supposed to be one of the magical things about
... the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/400|AS/400] OS/400 combo? That is, the DB is intimately tied to the OS and the hardware in ways that Oracle and the like, built on top of the OS, weren't.

If that's the case, then I still wonder where the greybeard in the original post is coming from.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Maybe the 400 was bringing that from the frame world ...
... down to the midrange world. If so, that would support what I was told.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yup "DB2/400" IS the filesystem.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New As an interesting side note
there are APIs available on warp that let you do the same thing; you can take a physical disk and write a program that will access it directly. You have to create the disk structures yourself, but you can (reportedly) get incredible performance out of the system by doing this.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New So, explain what "Oracle's Raw Disk Access" is?
Exactly the same DAMN thing. Well, not really but close enough that the miniscule advantage isn't really worth the cost.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Clueless
I've tossed the question off to my MF guru.
New Please have the grey beards define UFAM for you.
I'll bet they can't do it without making you feel belittled for asking what it actually means.

Virtual storage access method (VSAM) (for disk storage) has included in its superset of Datasets (all being record-oriented filesystems); Relative Record Data Set (RRDS) (of which User File Access Method is inclusive of this), Key Sequenced Data Set (KSDS), Entry Sequenced Data Set (ESDS) and Linear Data Set (LDS).

Effectively, UFAM will win on mainframe, everyday and twice on Sunday. Mainly because other systems don't handle data this way. It is like using a Sun 32 Processor, 64GB Memory, 10000 to manage data with Pen and Ink on Parchment then crumpling it up and using a photocopy of the wrinkled up parchement for the record.

Sure it can do it... but why would you?

What about asking a Mainframe to provide an Oracle Database. Sure it could do it but it would be slower than the Sun Box doing the Pen and Ink thing.

Even the TLA (ok FLA) RRDS means Round Robin Data Set on nearly anything else.

I'd like to see a full definition from your Grey Beards on UFAM. If it doesn't mention access methods, then someone is blowing smoke up your butt. Also ask them if it is SO GREAT, how come you can't hook up any Network CRM/ERP/LaaaTeeDa to it over the network? Gotta Remember They are ALWAYS TALKING Local Access methods for this stuff. Local access only (ala batch systems) like that is relevant now a days.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New So? (Playing devil's advocate)
Maybe it's not as efficient trading that data back-and-forth with other systems, but if you do everything on the frame, is it faster than doing eveything without the frame? And yes, he's talking about the batch processing, specifically [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=DDA%2bsweep.|DDA+sweep.].
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New HAHA.
A properly built system will be a order of magnitude less costly than a 'frame setup for the same speed. Or an order of magnitude faster for the same cost.

Your choice. Frames are only around because people are scared to LEARN and grow. Frames are built to do two things and two things only... local data access, and servicing green screens (sometimes now behind screen scrapers).

Network data access for Frames is MIGHTY expensive, some I know of are $55K just for one port, additional $25K for up-to 3 more.

Direct Demand Sweep Account(1) processing is something already being done on *NIX systems already at a far smaller cost than aframe is. Including the custom written software and maintenance.

Hell you could devote an entire rack of 1U machines to do it even faster. While providing the networking infrastructure at a third the cost, including software and maintenance.

Batch processing is a protected setup, they know it. It is all hidden. Why do batch processing on a Frame when you can do event based or epic based transactions.

I'll be honest, there isn't an arguement you can make allowing you to be heard. The Mainframe is the DATA SAFE... IT CANNOT BE CHANGED... OLD == GOOD. Why buy a new safe when the old one isn't broken? (2)

Go ahead and play the Devil's Advocate. It won't make any difference in any case.

Peter let us not get started about VMS and capabilities based setups. It wasn't the question posed or told to Drew as to why they aren't on the extinction list.

Maybe you should bring up the case of PVC sanitary pipes, in the 50's plumber swore up and down that it was the devil's product. Black Iron piping was FAR BETTER and in the Long run was cheaper to maintain... therefore it would never catch on. BTW, when was the last time you've heard of Black Pipe being used for anything except Natural Gas or High Pressure Steam?

Sure, 'frames still have a place, but not one your Grey Beards think.




(1) = I have a "sweep" for putting all of my General Account money in an Interest Bearing Sweep Account for 5 minutes a day (11:57PM until 12:02AM) so it can bear interest at a really nice rate. As GA money cannot be interest bearing in the US. Right now it pays for the Monthly Fees... as I don't have a ton of money in it. But for some companies with $100K running balance in a GA, it makes a difference.

(2) = Yeah, whatever, Safes built in the 1920's are GREAT safes... but not "Human Safe", things like automated locks, ventilation and electro-sealing are rather new. But who needs this stuff Huh? Maybe the Dead Clerk accidentally asphixiated when the fire alarm went off and shut the safe door... might.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Any real definition of UFAM?
Did they try and explain away the problems of using ONLY UFAM? Forcing everything ONTO the 'frame and then back off?

Any other real reasons explained to you and did they Make you feel demoralized for asking additional questions, not taking the Holy Scripture for its words sake?
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New I don't have a dog in that fight
What's on the frame is staying on the frame. He just mentioned a reason why that was a Good Thing[tm] that I hadn't heard before. I wanted to know how real it was.

Interesting side question: Even if you had technology that allowed entirely real-time transactions, would you still use batch? Every legal, regulatory and financial rule I have seen uses the business day as it's atomic increment of time. Is batch a purely technical consideration?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New And my MF guru's response:


No, haven't heard that before, but he probably was referring to "Undefined File Access Method", in which the file has attributes of "undefined" (not fixed length, not variable length with a length code preceding each record to tell you its length, but rather just a bunch of bytes). You have to do a read of a block of data, then interrogate the length code returned by the operating system (it tells you how many bytes were read),

Either that, or it's a specialized proprietary access method used by some third-party software product. IAM, for example, is Innovation's Access Method that they use for their dump/restore product. See if you can find out if this is a vendor-supplied product.




It's a bag-o-bytes with custom code that handles it. Or it is something so obscure it is not on the web anywhere. It certainly is not listed in any detail on IBM's Redbook (core docs) site.

Of course custom code beats any 3rd party indirect access method, be it DB2/SQL or ISAM, etc. All packages will sacrifice something for portability or supportability or ease of code.

That would be like me saying I've just spent the last 10 years custom hacking a C program that has indexes tuned to my style of data being far better than Oracle simply because it is faster for a single well defined activity that I've been coding to for the last 10 years.

Just silly!
New First link on Google seemed to be referencing it
[link|http://www.google.com/search?q=UFAM%2bmainframe|UFAM+mainframe] The first link up there is to an IBM trouble ticket. The way the term is used, it looks like a standard thing. Next time I talk to my guy I'll ask for more details.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New And when you ask
find out what language their application is written in.

     So what's UFAM? - (drewk) - (18)
         you sure he said ufam? - (boxley) - (8)
             google UFAM mainframe - (drewk) - (7)
                 Appears to be a file format? - (ChrisR) - (6)
                     My (limited) understanding - (drewk) - (5)
                         Wasn't that supposed to be one of the magical things about - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Maybe the 400 was bringing that from the frame world ... - (drewk)
                             Yup "DB2/400" IS the filesystem. -NT - (imric) - (2)
                                 As an interesting side note - (jake123) - (1)
                                     So, explain what "Oracle's Raw Disk Access" is? - (folkert)
         Clueless - (broomberg)
         Please have the grey beards define UFAM for you. - (folkert) - (2)
             So? (Playing devil's advocate) - (drewk) - (1)
                 HAHA. - (folkert)
         Any real definition of UFAM? - (folkert) - (1)
             I don't have a dog in that fight - (drewk)
         And my MF guru's response: - (broomberg) - (2)
             First link on Google seemed to be referencing it - (drewk) - (1)
                 And when you ask - (broomberg)

They're the very devil to clean out of the radiator.
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