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New Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse was staged
[link|http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm|Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse and deaths were staged]

It was to be a perfect Hollywood ending for Hezbollah. Just as the Israeli bombing of the village of Qana in 1996 brought a premature end to Israel's Operation "Grapes of Wrath," so too a sequel of Qana II could change, once and for all, the direction of Israel's current summer blockbuster, "Change of Direction."
...
There are other mysteries. The roof of the building was intact. Journalist Ben Wedeman of CNN noted that there was a larger crater next to the building, but observed that the building appeared not to have collapsed as a result of the Israeli strike.
...
Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.

There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.

Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead.

But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. Their limbs appeared to have stiffened, from rigor mortis. Neither were effects that would have resulted from an Israeli attack hours before. These were bodies that looked like they had been dead for days.
...
But the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial Israeli bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to "plant" bodies killed in previous fighting -- reports in previous days indicated that nearby Tyre was used as a temporary morgue -- place them in the basement, and then engineer a "controlled demolition" to fake another Israeli attack.

New Hardly an unbiased source...
Pardon me if my bullshit-o-meter goes off the scale.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New Can you explain the 7 hour time difference?
The way the bodies look? This would not be the first time that terrorist groups have tried something like this.
New doesnt matter, its still dead kids
it wouldnt surprise me that it was staged. Alls fair in war.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New It makes a huge difference
and yes it wouldn't surprise me in the least, remember the so called "Jenin Massacre" where the Palestinians claimed that Israel had massacred 500 people etc.
New The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean.
Yeah, I can.

They're lying.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New Re: The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean.
anyone can see that from that the tv pictures
New Re: The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean.
anyone can see that from that the tv pictures

Bollocks, sir. I'm not a photopathologist and neither are you. You and I probably couldn't even tell if rigor mortis was present or not from a picture.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New How about this?
[link|http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html|http://eureferendum....7/milking-it.html]

he Lebanese \ufffdrescue worker\ufffd we see in many of these photos parades around with a dead child for four hours, even changing his clothes and continuing the exhibition.

Does that sound like it is real or staged?
New kid is still dead
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Well, then, let's just look at the numbers
They, after all, don't carry emotional overtones like pictures of dead children do.

Est. dead Lebanese: 750 (600+ confirmed).

Dead Israelis: 52 (some of which are actually soldiers in Lebanon).

They're improving: in the early going, Israel was only getting a 10:1 kill ratio.

Along the way, you've managed to out-Bush Bush; a lot of people that were either indifferent or even sympathetic have changed their minds in the last three weeks.

[link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060729.MIDREVOLUTION29/TPStory/International|http://www.theglobea...ory/International]

Boxley was asking about the veracity of Canadian newspapers, while quoting quoting a website owned by the Asper family, who also own many TV stations and newspapers, such as the National Post. However, the article he was linking to was actually written for the paper linked above; Lewis Mackenzie is a regular contributor to the G&M Op-Ed pages.

The newspaper above was owned by Ken Thomsen (until his death earlier this year) and is one of the most respected papers in the country; the editorial pages have consistently sided with Israel's right to defend itself and has pointed out on a number of occasions Hezbollah's obvious deficiencies (which are legion).

Do you think the columnist is trying to spin an anti-Israeli perspective there?

The thing is, right now Israel is being most successful at creating enemies where they didn't exist before. In the past, the Maronites, Sunnis, and Druze didn't particularly like nor trust Hezbollah, and wanted to see them finished as a military force. Now that Israel has shown how unable the new democratic government is at protecting the people there from the depredations of its neighbours (and both Israel and Syria have long and nasty histories doing just that), they are looking at other agencies.

Good going; instead of trying to reach out and help the moderate democratic forces in Lebanon, Israel and the US have turned them into enemies. Makes you wonder if W is telling the truth when he says he's trying to help democracy in that part of the world. As for my own PM, I'm disgusted.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Re: Well, then, let's just look at the numbers
The numbers prove that Israel cares about civilians and therefore every building in Israel has a bomb shelter and every apartment built since 1991 has a secure room. Israelis aren't getting killed because they are sitting in bomb shelters. hezbollah on the other hand is interested in civilian casualties and hides and fires weapons from civilian areas:

[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html?pagewanted=2|http://www.nytimes.c...html?pagewanted=2]

A day after criticizing Israel for \ufffddisproportionate*\ufffd strikes against civilians, Mr. Egeland accused Hezbollah of \ufffdcowardly blending\ufffd among women and children.

\ufffdI heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this,\ufffd he said. \ufffdI don\ufffdt think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.\ufffd


Tell me, how many American civilians were killed in WWII vs. German or Japanese civilians? A lot more the 10:1. Do the numbers tell the story about WWII?
Expand Edited by bluke Aug. 1, 2006, 06:54:43 AM EDT
New Nit
The numbers prove that Israel cares about civilians and therefore every building in Israel has a bomb shelter and every apartment built since 1991 has a secure room.
No, that proves Israel cares about Israelis.

I know that based on this you're going to think I'm in favor of exterminating all Jews, and I can't stop you from choosing to think that. But there something you should remember, even if only for the sake of tactics: You have a lot more credibility if you can admit when your opponent has a point.

Yes, Hezbollah is hiding among women and children. Yes, they want Israel to be seen killing women and children. But yes, Israel is killing women and children. Say all you want to that they don't want to. So that they have no better alternative. Say it's unintended collateral damage when taking out legitimate military targets. All of that will be true. But it will still be true that Israel has killed hundreds of civilians. Is it impossible for you to feel sorrow at that?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Indeed.
Bluke needs to take a deep breath and look at things like [link|http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2006/08/the_qana_tipping_point.html|this] collection of published opinions from around the world.

E.g.:

Israel's current strategy, if it does not change, will create new enemies, says Anthony Cordesman, military analyst for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, a conservative think tank.

Israel, he says, entered the war "on [link|http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_progj/task,view/id,724/|deeply flawed] grand strategic and tactical principles, and seems to have fought the ideological and political dimension on the basis of the perceptions of Israelis and Americans. The IAF and IDF have so far been clumsy in both air and artillery operations, and sought tactical advantage at serious risk of excessive civilian casualties and collateral damage. Military cultures do not change in mid-operation and the incredibly clumsy IDF and Israeli government response to Qana is a case in point. Israel will, however, have to learn in the future if it does not want to take a largely passive region and turn it into an active enemy."

Hezbollah has already won a political victory, says Haaretz's Akiva Eldar.

"Irrespective of when the war in the north ends, it already has claimed [link|http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744440.html|a place of honor] in Arab victory albums, along with the Egyptian 'victory' in 1973. The political leadership is beginning to grasp that even if we manage to send Hassan Nasrallah on the journey taken by Ahmed Yassin, Hezbollah (the Party of Allah), like Hamas, will not disappear from this world. Moreover, according to the plan Condoleezza Rice is carrying around, Hezbollah is expected to exit this war having extricated the Lebanese prisoners and the Shaba Farms from Israel, and still get to keep some of its arsenal."


The IDF and the Israeli government need to remember that war is politics by other means. Keep your eye on what you want to achieve politically and don't assume that military action will achieve your goals. It's a tool - not the end in itself. The goal should be to achieve a political solution, not to disarm or crush or substantially weaken Hezbollah or humiliate Nasrallah. If Israel doesn't understand that soon, they, and the world, are in for even more pain. [link|http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060801/D8J7JKB80.html|Pushing deeper into Lebanon] is just going to make things worse, IMO.

Cheers,
Scott.
New You're seriously comparing this to WWII?
Tell me, how many American civilians were killed in WWII vs. German or Japanese civilians? A lot more the 10:1. Do the numbers tell the story about WWII?


<Shaking head>

So, is Israel firebombing dresden?

Or dropping nukes on Japan?

How about Pearl Harbor?

Or the invasion of Poland? or France?

You sure you want to make this comparison?
New Well, sure!
You remember how Britain was dispirited and surrendered following the nightly Nazi bombing raids on London?

Oh wait, that was in a parallel universe.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New snicker
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New It's worked swimmingly in Grozny, too. 23 kB .img
[image|http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/29/Grozny_war.jpg/300px-Grozny_war.jpg|0|Russian troops in Grozny, February 2000|220|300]

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New I don't understand your point
The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and killed some 2400 US sailors, what was the US reaction? Was the reaction proportional?

Along those lines was the firebombing of Dresden a war crime? How about Hiroshima? How about the raids on Tokyo?
New I know...
and I don't really expect you to. You're hung up on a protect Israel at all costs mindset and have forgotten history.

You ignore the fact that lots of people have considered (and accused) the US of war crimes for both Dresden and Hiroshima. You've also forgotten the fact that both Hiroshima and Dresden were acts against countries that were fully at war. Germany had invaded both Poland, France and a lot of other countries. Japan landed (and taken) islands in Alaska (and taken American civilians as POWs).

<Shrug>

I've already agreed with you that Israel needs to defend itself.

You know that I'm not a fan of Israel (I not a fan of any country that attacks us).
You know that both Saudia Arabia and others are also supporting Israels actions.

Just a thought: when your enemies are supporting your actions - perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your actions....maybe your helping them.

New If we're going to go down that road...
...then neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever lost 20,000 troops in a single day.

[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme_%281916%29|http://en.wikipedia...._Somme_%281916%29]

Neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever had 25,000 people killed in a single air raid.

[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II|http://en.wikipedia....n_in_World_War_II]

Neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever expended a million troops to hold a city.

[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad|http://en.wikipedia....tle_of_Stalingrad]

Every single death is a real human tragedy in this pissy, crappy little war.

But don't start pretending that it's anything other than a pissy, crappy little war.

And when you've won (or lost), what exactly is it you've won (or lost)?

A few square miles of fuck-all, that's what.

Idiots, the lot of you.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #263344 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=263344|ICLRPD]
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New Welcome to the war of public opinion
which is the one that Israel is currently losing on nearly all fronts.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New More evidence
[link|http://www.di2.nu/200608/01.htm|Qana-llywood]

The best evidence of prior planning is not to be found in Qana but in Beirut where, as Powerline noted, a large banner was printed up and displayed just hours after the "event". The banner's text clearly refers to the Qana deaths ("The massacre of children in Qana 2, is the gift of Rice. The clever bombs..Stupid") but the banner would have taken [link|http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/08/wondering-more-about-qana-and-30-foot.html|a day or more to produce].

Since I do banners like this for a living, I can tell you it take more than a few hours depending on the equipment. A banner that large can be done one of two ways. With a grant format printer. It would probably take about 3-4 hours to print, then hours more to sew and grommet so it could hung....The other way it to use a smaller series of machines all color calibrated and produce sections. At that point they would have to be stretch the length of the banner ( read large facility) and sewn together. ...Just putting an image together that large on a computer with Type would take a few hours. Then color tests, proofs and finally printing. That would be an all day affair for most print houses even with a grand format printer.
New Ooh, blogs.
Well, I'm convinced. The Qana thing wasn't an Israeli air strike after all.

This isn't being picked up by the mainstream media at all, mainly because it's a load of pro-Israeli toss.

Lookie here, before your whiny "anti-israel" meter starts beeping: I think that both sides of this conflict are acting like a total pack of wankers who could equally benefit from a good hard kick in the bollocks.

Of course, you'd like me to say that Hezbollah are Bad And Evil Without Exception, only it's not as simple as that.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
New My brother used to make doznes of those a day for a living
banners arnt that dificult.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New FWIW (and that ain't much)
I don't see evidence of grommets.

You don't need color tests and proofs, or sewn edges, for propaganda.

The image could be done in advance, expecting that eventually something is going to happen they can decide to pin on her.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
     What really happened in Kfar Kana in Lebanon? - (bluke) - (50)
         Are you paid to be an apologist - (jake123) - (2)
             he lives there he has a right, same right you have - (boxley) - (1)
                 Thanks Box - (bluke)
         according to survivors there was 2 explosions - (boxley)
         Bloomberg story. - (Another Scott)
         Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse was staged - (bluke) - (26)
             Hardly an unbiased source... - (pwhysall) - (20)
                 Can you explain the 7 hour time difference? - (bluke) - (19)
                     doesnt matter, its still dead kids - (boxley) - (1)
                         It makes a huge difference - (bluke)
                     The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean. - (pwhysall) - (16)
                         Re: The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean. - (bluke) - (15)
                             Re: The way *they say* the bodies look, you mean. - (pwhysall) - (14)
                                 How about this? - (bluke) - (13)
                                     kid is still dead -NT - (boxley)
                                     Well, then, let's just look at the numbers - (jake123) - (11)
                                         Re: Well, then, let's just look at the numbers - (bluke) - (10)
                                             Nit - (drewk) - (1)
                                                 Indeed. - (Another Scott)
                                             You're seriously comparing this to WWII? - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                                                 Well, sure! - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                     snicker -NT - (boxley)
                                                     It's worked swimmingly in Grozny, too. 23 kB .img - (Another Scott)
                                                 I don't understand your point - (bluke) - (1)
                                                     I know... - (Simon_Jester)
                                             If we're going to go down that road... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (jb4)
             Welcome to the war of public opinion - (bepatient)
             More evidence - (bluke) - (3)
                 Ooh, blogs. - (pwhysall)
                 My brother used to make doznes of those a day for a living - (boxley)
                 FWIW (and that ain't much) - (drewk)
         Qana seems to be a popular setting for IDF mistakes - (altmann) - (14)
             That could be why Hezbollah would stage something ... - (bluke) - (13)
                 Willing to believe anything that lets them off the hook, eh? -NT - (jake123) - (12)
                     And you are willing to believe any Arab propaganda - (bluke) - (11)
                         The reality is that PR is another front line - (bepatient) - (1)
                             LRPD sees and raises: It's the greatest tool ever invented - (Ashton)
                         arabs masterbate to that stuff - (boxley) - (8)
                             100% percent - (bluke)
                             That is what I am here for :) -NT - (bluke) - (6)
                                 You are a riot! On this topic, you have zero credibility. - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                                     You think you do? - (bluke) - (4)
                                         I read that old thread again. - (a6l6e6x) - (3)
                                             Shaba farms even according to the UN is not Lebanese - (bluke) - (1)
                                                 On the other hand, Israel is even less qualified.... - (a6l6e6x)
                                             I wasn't crying "massacre" without evidence - (bluke)
         Somehow the number of dead has been cut in half - (bluke) - (2)
             you continually miss the point - (boxley) - (1)
                 "One death is a tragedy, one thousand dead is a statistic." -NT - (drewk)

Accountancy is more strict in its rejection of divine intervention than science is.
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