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New What are you trying to say?
The fact is that Iran is behind this. Iran is trying to create a Shiite crescent in the Middle East which would be a very worrisome development for the US. The US is very concerned about Iran's influence in Iraq, nuclear weapons development, and it's control of massive oil reserves. A Shiite controlled Lebanon allied with Iran is not in the US's interests. Therefore, Israel's war against Hezbollah is very much serving the interests of the US.
New Please do not define
America's interest.

Your argument is that Israel is a grown-up country that has the right to defend itself.

I agree.

What I do not understand is why my tax dollars are going to support a "grown-up country". If Israel is strong enough to defend itself and stand on it's own two feet, why does it need our help?

If it does need our help...then we get a say in matters.

(And I'm not the only one saying this....)
"I'm not going to try to judge each and every Israeli operation or each and every Israeli attack," Ms. Rice said the morning after seven Canadians, including four children, were killed by Israeli warplanes.

But, she added, "We have said to Prime Minister [Ehud] Olmert and to other Israelis that we are deeply concerned about the effect on innocent civilians."
[link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060718.MIDEASTUS18/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/| Source ]
Expand Edited by Simon_Jester July 18, 2006, 10:21:35 AM EDT
New You can say that about half the countries in the world
Let's see, off the top of my head there are American troops in
Korea and many other places.

all grown up countries.

Last I checked there were no US troops in or defending Israel directly. Yes, the US gives Israel money for defense as it does many other countries (such as Egypt which is openly anti-American), but in fact, most of the money goes back to the US in the form of arms purchases from US companies.

I happen to think (along with many othersin Israel) that Israel would be better off getting no American money, the Israeli economy is certainly strong off to handle that and it would remove exactly this claim that you have.
Expand Edited by bluke July 18, 2006, 11:40:17 AM EDT
New Great, we're in agreement.
New Here's a theory for you
If the USA wasn't supporting Israel, it would be a lot easier for us to be allied with countries like Iran. Right now they can't easily be our friends because we're their enemy's friend.

In fact even if Israel wants to help us, they can't. The political fallout from, for instance, accepting Israeli help in Iraq makes that untenable for us.

How cheap would it be to pull the plug on Israel? It wouldn't actually cost us money, we'd just have to stop giving money to a country that routinely conducts espionage and spying operations against us. One that gives us not a heck of a lot in return.

Want a scary thought? One of the big reasons why the USA doesn't do that is that the House of Saud doesn't want us to. Why not? Well the existence of Israel provides them a convenient rallying cry. Down with the Jews! Nice way to distract the populace from where the oil money (doesn't) go. We have other reasons, such as a powerful voting block of fundamentalist Christians who want to see Israel start WW III. But I suspect that this one is a big one.

Your job is therefore to be hated throughout the Middle East. You're doing a good job. Sometimes some of you die. Sometimes you kick around some unimportant countries as a result. But on the whole the Jews remain what you've been for the last thousand years - convenient scapegoats for those in power.

a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett
New you been reading harryharrison again? Pyrrus comes to mind
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Nope, Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse. Recommended.
He documents the internal conflict between the neocons and big oil about Iraq. The neocons want to privatize oil so tons will flood out and collapse the price of oil. Big oil wants to keep Iraq's oil in the ground so oil's price skyrockets. Both had secret invasion plans for Iraq which he has copies of. (Big Oil's was harder to get, but once he filed a freedom of information request with the title and author, he got it.)

The neocons got their way on most things, but as your gas pump shows, big oil has proven to have sharper knives.

Lots of good information and ugly history.

He doesn't talk much about Israel's role in all of this, but it dovetails very well with [link|http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/|Philip Greenspun's take on Israel]. So I combined the two and you got that post that I just wrote.

a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett
     Isreal forces move into Lebanon - (JayMehaffey) - (84)
         this action was predicted a week ago - (boxley)
         Re: Isreal forces move into Lebanon - (systems) - (81)
             And how does this make al-Jazeera less biased? - (admin) - (20)
                 Umm, Lives in Egypt, is a Sunni, has shown incredible - (broomberg)
                 Does this really matter? - (systems) - (5)
                     CNN is not the most popular news channel in the US. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Fox bias is much worse! -NT - (ChrisR)
                     No, you are biased. - (admin)
                     I enjoy your posts although I may disagree with you - (boxley) - (1)
                         Sure there can - (jake123)
                 FWIW, I'd be more inclined to think that CNN is biased... - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                     That's not what I asked. -NT - (admin) - (8)
                         Then adjust what I said - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                             Not to be cynical... - (hnick) - (6)
                                 ICLRPD. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                 I agree with that - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                     Even NPR? -NT - (broomberg) - (3)
                                         Pick up Armed Madhouse - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Find a Pacifica radio station. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                 Point -NT - (ben_tilly)
                     CNN says Israel is fighting a 2 front war - (andread) - (2)
                         you mean they are shooting rockets at themselves? - (boxley)
                         Really? - (Arkadiy)
             I know some Israelis who... - (andread)
             Hezbollah was hitting Israel with rockets starting Wed - (Arkadiy) - (55)
                 Problems with that - (drewk) - (2)
                     Real chem/bio weapons are really bad - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                         They are as deadly as nukes - (ben_tilly)
                 How would Israel know when they won? - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     Re: How would Israel know when they won? - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                         War on Hesbollah - (ChrisR) - (1)
                             Now that I had a few days to - (Arkadiy)
                 If there can be no winner? - (ChrisR) - (45)
                     Israel's aim is the following - (bluke) - (2)
                         Messages via force are rather hard to control - (ChrisR)
                         Won't work - (broomberg)
                     This is exactly why standard approach is misguided - (bluke) - (41)
                         I agree with the assessment of the problem. - (ChrisR) - (38)
                             What would you suggest? - (bluke) - (29)
                                 Disagree. - (Another Scott) - (28)
                                     You have to understand the reasons here - (bluke) - (27)
                                         They're hardly comparable situations. - (Another Scott) - (26)
                                             In addition, - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                 Re: In addition, - (bluke)
                                                 No thats not the fact - (bepatient)
                                             That is easy for you to say - (bluke) - (22)
                                                 Where are people actually dying from this? - (jake123) - (21)
                                                     so no deaths in Israel, whatju smokin? -NT - (boxley) - (10)
                                                         Look at the numbers - (jake123) - (9)
                                                             Parallels - (drewk)
                                                             not saying they are doing the right thing but ignoring the - (boxley)
                                                             The answer is very simple - (bluke) - (6)
                                                                 Re: The answer is very simple - (jake123) - (5)
                                                                     Are you prepared to commit suicide? - (bluke) - (4)
                                                                         No, when did I say that? - (jake123) - (3)
                                                                             When they did not exist? - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                                 A whole bunch of people in Lebanon that didn't care before - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                     Jake...relax. - (Simon_Jester)
                                                     Are you blind deaf and dumb? - (bluke) - (9)
                                                         How many civilians has Israel killed in the last fifty years - (jake123) - (8)
                                                             how many civilians has Canada killed in the last 50 years - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                 Nice red herring box - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                     April 28th 2006 is HISTORY? WTF - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                         Not resolving here - (jake123)
                                                             What does that have to do with anything? - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                 You severely underestimate Hezbollah's goals. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                     You are right about Hezbollah goals - (bluke)
                                                             Proportion and number of civilian deaths - (bluke)
                             Israel must be allowed to defend itself.... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                 What are you trying to say? - (bluke) - (6)
                                     Please do not define - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                         You can say that about half the countries in the world - (bluke) - (1)
                                             Great, we're in agreement. -NT - (Simon_Jester)
                                     Here's a theory for you - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                         you been reading harryharrison again? Pyrrus comes to mind -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Nope, Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse. Recommended. - (ben_tilly)
                         Step 1 would be to stop undermining them - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                             Not really - (bluke)
                 Re: Hezbollah was hitting Israel with rockets starting Wed - (systems) - (1)
                     Hard to say where the detailed truth lies. - (hnick)
             Note that CNN is currently showing... - (admin) - (2)
                 not with a favorable caption, I wot. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                     Favorable to whom? - (admin)
         Victory process, not peace process, needed in Middle East - (bluke)

Gotta catch 'em all!
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