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New That is easy for you to say
It is not your house being blown up and your friends/relative being killed by these rockets. Israel is trying to block the shipment of weapons in any way possible.
New Where are people actually dying from this?
Oh yeah, Lebanon, not Israel.

That argument's specious under the most charitable of readings.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New so no deaths in Israel, whatju smokin?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Look at the numbers
Israel is doing a much better job of wasting civilians. This doesn't make Israel any better than Hezballah, just more efficient at it.

In fact, it might not even do that; it would be interesting to see a dollar/death ratio on how well the two sides are doing at killing efficiency.

After all, if you're trying to rein in Hezballah, the first obvious step is to take the nascent (and still weak) democracy they're parasitically exploiting and trashing the shit out of it, just to make sure that everyone realises that that new democracy can't really protect them. You should ignore the powerful neighbours that are funding and arming them (ie- Syria and Iran) to go for the Other Democracy in the region, simply because they're not yet powerful enough to police their entire country yet. After all, if you want them to police Hezballah out of existence, it's clear you should trash their airports, blockade their shipping, destroy their power infrastructure, and blow up their fuel dumps to absolutely ensure the state's complete and utter inability to deal with the problem.

My view on this is that Lebanon is being used as an arena for Israel to try and deal with Iran and Syria's delusions of grandeur. As one of the few countries that actually has a democratic government, Israel being manipulated into using Lebanon for the fields of battle seems a little misguided in the long term. They should have invaded Syria instead. Oh, wait, perhaps the real problem here is that Syria would be a much more costly show of force... despite the fact that they have a lot more to do with the provocation than Lebanon's government has.

Maybe the real issue here is that Lebanon is weak, and therefore easily picked on.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Parallels
They should have invaded Syria instead. Oh, wait, perhaps the real problem here is that Syria would be a much more costly show of force... despite the fact that they have a lot more to do with the provocation than Lebanon's government has.

Maybe the real issue here is that Lebanon is weak, and therefore easily picked on.

They should have invaded Saudi Arabia | North Korea instead. Oh, wait, perhaps the real problem here is that Saudi Arabia | North Korea would be a much more costly show of force... despite the fact that they have a lot more to do with the provocation than Iraq's government has.

Maybe the real issue here is that Iraq is weak, and therefore easily picked on.
I couldn't decide if that should be Saudi Arabia or North Korea. I guess it depends on whether you're going with the "9/11 provocation" or the "WMD provocation".
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New not saying they are doing the right thing but ignoring the
rockets killing your people isnt going to work either.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New The answer is very simple
Hezbollah is firing rockets specifically and only at civilians. In addition Hezbollah like many other terrorist groups specifically hides and shoots rockets from civilian areas and therefore they are the cause of the civilian casualties. Israel is only attacking military and strategic targets and has warned the civilian population. It is Hezbollah's tactics that are causing the civilian deaths.
New Re: The answer is very simple
Hezbollah is firing rockets specifically and only at civilians. In addition Hezbollah like many other terrorist groups specifically hides and shoots rockets from civilian areas and therefore they are the cause of the civilian casualties. Israel is only attacking military and strategic targets and has warned the civilian population. It is Hezbollah's tactics that are causing the civilian deaths.
We're just the triggerman, but it's really their own fault. That's why it's OK.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Are you prepared to commit suicide?
The fact is that both the Palestinians and Hezbollah are shooting rockets at Israeli civilians from highly populated civilian areas. What should Israel do sit back and do nothing while missiles are raining down on Haifa, Safed, etc.?
New No, when did I say that?
I said nothing of the sort. I DID say that what Israel IS doing was wrong from an ethical perspective, and furthermore that they're really hurting their own interests anyway.

Israel is doing a really great job of creating enemies where they did not formerly exist. Good going.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New When they did not exist?
What are you talking about? What new enemies has Israel created?
New A whole bunch of people in Lebanon that didn't care before
do very deeply now.

Was the new Lebanese government your enemy before? They are now.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Jake...relax.
his argument that they were all against him before hand is far more telling.

(You don't need to say any more at this point. :-) )
New Are you blind deaf and dumb?
tell that to the 8 railroad workers killed by a rocket falling on the garage. Tell that to the women killed by a rocket sitting on her balcony drinking coffee, etc. There are at least 25 civilians dead as a result of rocket attacks and many many more wounded.
New How many civilians has Israel killed in the last fifty years
vs how many they've lost?

Oh yeah, that's right, Israel doesn't think of most of them as civilians. In fact, I kinda wonder whether or not they think of them as underhumans. From a lot of the stuff I've heard emanating out of the mouths of a lot of Israelis that I've seen on TV, it's pretty clear that a pretty big chunk of them do, though the Israeli government is pretty good at the mealy-mouthed euphemistic marketing speak so as not to actually come out and say it.

For an example of the kind of thing I mean, see my response to your other post.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New how many civilians has Canada killed in the last 50 years
vs how many they've lost?

Oh yeah, that's right, Canada doesn't think of most of them as civilians. In fact, I kinda wonder whether or not they think of them as underhumans. From a lot of the stuff I've heard emanating out of the mouths of a lot of Canadians that I've seen on TV, it's pretty clear that a pretty big chunk of them do, though the Canadian government is pretty good at the mealy-mouthed euphemistic marketing speak so as not to actually come out and say it.
what a nice fit to the troubles on the reservations.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Nice red herring box
and you already know my position on that part of Canada's history too.

'nuff said.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New April 28th 2006 is HISTORY? WTF
[link|http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/2041|http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/2041]
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Not resolving here
You talking about Caledonia? And what does that have to do with how Israel is doing to Lebanon?

It's still a red herring Box.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Expand Edited by jake123 July 19, 2006, 02:09:23 PM EDT
New What does that have to do with anything?
Basically what you are saying is that more Lebanese/Palestinians have died than Israelis and therefore Israel is guilty. This bizarre calculus implies that if only more Israelis had been killed by Hezbollah rockets, there would be no moral quandary.

While proportionality may be a relevant measure in some situations \ufffd baseball statistics and model cars come to mind \ufffd the appropriateness of Israel\ufffds response to the Hezbollah attacks should not be measured by the number of people who are killed in Lebanon.

This argument distorts the real question. The Arab world has little regard for the value of life. Are you including the suicide bombers in the equation? What about the "militants" who fire from the houses or crowds of civilians?

In addition, Israel should not be punished for having invested in bomb shelters and early-warning systems. These have cost the Israeli public dearly over the years.

The question is whether the goals of the military action are justified.

The goals of the present conflict are for Hezbollah to shoot as many rockets as possible into populated city centers to kill as many civilians as possible; and for Israel to uproot the terrorist infrastructure, missile launching pads and the terrorists themselves by using intelligence gathering and precise bombing.

Rather than seeking "an eye for an eye" or retribution, Israel is seeking to eliminate the threat of future attacks on its cities.

This response will be successful not if it is proportional, but if it results in the elimination of this threat.

In December 1941, would anyone have suggested that the United States\ufffd response was appropriately "proportional" and complete after the first 2,400 Japanese had been killed? How many German and Japanes civilians died in WWII compared to American civilians?
New You severely underestimate Hezbollah's goals.
The question is whether the goals of the military action are justified.

The goals of the present conflict are for Hezbollah to shoot as many rockets as possible into populated city centers to kill as many civilians as possible; and for Israel to uproot the terrorist infrastructure, missile launching pads and the terrorists themselves by using intelligence gathering and precise bombing.


Hezbollah's goals aren't to kill as many civilians as possible. In thinking so, you're painting yourself into a corner.

Hezbollah has several goals in the present conflict:

1) Force Israel to negotiate the [link|http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-17-voa15.cfm|release of prisoners]. Their public posture is that Israel has refused to negotiate the release of Lebanese prisoners, so they "have no choice".

2) Steal some of the press attention back from Hamaas.

3) Open a 2nd front on Israel.

4) Take pressure off Iran about its nuclear activities, and force the US to directly negotiate with Iran.

5) Demonstrate that the US must deal with Syria for there to be any stability around Israel.

6) Goad Israel into over-reacting to strengthen Hezbollah's position with the Lebanese Shia population, and thus in Lebanon, while simultaneously causing international opinion to again turn against Israel. If Israel attacks severely, it shows that Hezbollah needs arms to defend Lebanon. If they don't, it shows that Nasrallah is a great leader who can stand up to Israel. Either way, Nasrallah wins.

If you only see Hezbollah as a group of bloodthirsty terrorists who want to murder Israelis, then you'll never choose to act in ways that further Israel's long-term interests. Separate the goals from the tactics. You've got to understand their goals even while you condemn their tactics and even while you argue against them achieving their goals.

Few disagree that Israel has the right to kill those people who are attacking it, and everyone understands that Hezbollah is operating from civilian areas. Few are arguing that if Hezbollah sends 10 missiles into Haifa, then Israel should only send 10 missiles back. That's not what people mean when they talk about proportional response.

The problem is that Israel seems to feel that dropping leaflets and saying "we're sorry, but it's their fault" when Lebanese (or [link|http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=6d361bec-134b-4993-99ca-5addb300c450|Canadians] are killed or, when [link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060720.MIDEASTLLEBAN20/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/| a UN compound is shelled] is sufficient. It's not. Many of us recognize that Israel is in a bad situation, but only Israel chooses the targets that it attacks. Saying that Israel is only attacking Hezbollah or "strategic" targets just excuses every mistake on the IDF's part. Bombing highway bridges and airports isn't going to stop rockets from hitting Haifa. It punishes civilians - the people that must ultimately be on your side for there to be peace - while doing nothing to affect the capabilities of the small bands who are firing the rockets.

Flattening southern Lebanon isn't going to get rid of Hezbollah nor get Israel back its soldiers. Israel needs to adjust its tactics and recognize that the IDF and IAF aren't the be-all and end-all of its future security. It can no-longer expect peace simply by defeating an enemy.

It's not 1967.

What happened to the IDF of [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2786000/2786967.stm|Entebbe]?

Cheers,
Scott.
New You are right about Hezbollah goals
Many in Israel are still scarred from the last time Israel sent ground trips into Lebanon (1982), just like the US for many years was scarred by Vietnam. This means that Israel is very reluctant to commit ground troops. Therefore, the reliance on air power.

The problem with what you are suggesting is that the international community has consistently dissapointed Israel. In 1967 U Thant pulled out the UN troops in the Sinai paving the way to the 6 day war, a few years ago, UN troops in Lebanon stood by and watched as Hezbollah kidnapped 3 Israeli soldiers. Relying on anyone else to guarantee Israel's security is a very dangerous and losing proposition.
New Proportion and number of civilian deaths
[link|http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110008675|Keeping Things in Proportion]

What's more, if this report from [link|http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html|YnetNews.com] is correct, Hezbollah is trying to maximize Lebanese civilian deaths, presumably for its own propaganda purposes:

The IDF [Israel Defense Forces] has found that Hizbullah is preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon. Roadblocks have been set up outside some of the villages to prevent residents from leaving, while in other villages Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out.


As hard as it may be for people brought up in the West to understand this, the value of life in the Arab world is just not the same as in the West.
     Isreal forces move into Lebanon - (JayMehaffey) - (84)
         this action was predicted a week ago - (boxley)
         Re: Isreal forces move into Lebanon - (systems) - (81)
             And how does this make al-Jazeera less biased? - (admin) - (20)
                 Umm, Lives in Egypt, is a Sunni, has shown incredible - (broomberg)
                 Does this really matter? - (systems) - (5)
                     CNN is not the most popular news channel in the US. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Fox bias is much worse! -NT - (ChrisR)
                     No, you are biased. - (admin)
                     I enjoy your posts although I may disagree with you - (boxley) - (1)
                         Sure there can - (jake123)
                 FWIW, I'd be more inclined to think that CNN is biased... - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                     That's not what I asked. -NT - (admin) - (8)
                         Then adjust what I said - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                             Not to be cynical... - (hnick) - (6)
                                 ICLRPD. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                 I agree with that - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                     Even NPR? -NT - (broomberg) - (3)
                                         Pick up Armed Madhouse - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Find a Pacifica radio station. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                 Point -NT - (ben_tilly)
                     CNN says Israel is fighting a 2 front war - (andread) - (2)
                         you mean they are shooting rockets at themselves? - (boxley)
                         Really? - (Arkadiy)
             I know some Israelis who... - (andread)
             Hezbollah was hitting Israel with rockets starting Wed - (Arkadiy) - (55)
                 Problems with that - (drewk) - (2)
                     Real chem/bio weapons are really bad - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                         They are as deadly as nukes - (ben_tilly)
                 How would Israel know when they won? - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     Re: How would Israel know when they won? - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                         War on Hesbollah - (ChrisR) - (1)
                             Now that I had a few days to - (Arkadiy)
                 If there can be no winner? - (ChrisR) - (45)
                     Israel's aim is the following - (bluke) - (2)
                         Messages via force are rather hard to control - (ChrisR)
                         Won't work - (broomberg)
                     This is exactly why standard approach is misguided - (bluke) - (41)
                         I agree with the assessment of the problem. - (ChrisR) - (38)
                             What would you suggest? - (bluke) - (29)
                                 Disagree. - (Another Scott) - (28)
                                     You have to understand the reasons here - (bluke) - (27)
                                         They're hardly comparable situations. - (Another Scott) - (26)
                                             In addition, - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                 Re: In addition, - (bluke)
                                                 No thats not the fact - (bepatient)
                                             That is easy for you to say - (bluke) - (22)
                                                 Where are people actually dying from this? - (jake123) - (21)
                                                     so no deaths in Israel, whatju smokin? -NT - (boxley) - (10)
                                                         Look at the numbers - (jake123) - (9)
                                                             Parallels - (drewk)
                                                             not saying they are doing the right thing but ignoring the - (boxley)
                                                             The answer is very simple - (bluke) - (6)
                                                                 Re: The answer is very simple - (jake123) - (5)
                                                                     Are you prepared to commit suicide? - (bluke) - (4)
                                                                         No, when did I say that? - (jake123) - (3)
                                                                             When they did not exist? - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                                 A whole bunch of people in Lebanon that didn't care before - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                     Jake...relax. - (Simon_Jester)
                                                     Are you blind deaf and dumb? - (bluke) - (9)
                                                         How many civilians has Israel killed in the last fifty years - (jake123) - (8)
                                                             how many civilians has Canada killed in the last 50 years - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                 Nice red herring box - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                     April 28th 2006 is HISTORY? WTF - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                         Not resolving here - (jake123)
                                                             What does that have to do with anything? - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                 You severely underestimate Hezbollah's goals. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                     You are right about Hezbollah goals - (bluke)
                                                             Proportion and number of civilian deaths - (bluke)
                             Israel must be allowed to defend itself.... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                 What are you trying to say? - (bluke) - (6)
                                     Please do not define - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                         You can say that about half the countries in the world - (bluke) - (1)
                                             Great, we're in agreement. -NT - (Simon_Jester)
                                     Here's a theory for you - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                         you been reading harryharrison again? Pyrrus comes to mind -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Nope, Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse. Recommended. - (ben_tilly)
                         Step 1 would be to stop undermining them - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                             Not really - (bluke)
                 Re: Hezbollah was hitting Israel with rockets starting Wed - (systems) - (1)
                     Hard to say where the detailed truth lies. - (hnick)
             Note that CNN is currently showing... - (admin) - (2)
                 not with a favorable caption, I wot. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                     Favorable to whom? - (admin)
         Victory process, not peace process, needed in Middle East - (bluke)

History shows again and again how Nature points out the folly of men.
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