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New Unless RMI gets fixed
I like n-tier and J2EE does that well. Except you don't really have a proper domain model as the business logic ends up being separate from the model. I dislike result sets and like object relational mapping. Hence I prefer container managed entity beans over JDBC for persistence. For presentation, the MVC frameworks like Struts allows a cleaner separation between workflow logic and view logic, aiding maintainability.

The two big problems with J2EE is the hideous XML deployment descriptors required by the EJB spec and object serialization over RMI. For the deployment descriptors, we, fortunately, have code generation via XDoclet tags. There are a still a few headaches left in EJB 2.1, such as entity bean relationships, but, from what I've read of EJB 3.0 so far, annotation tags will ease them. It isn't pretty but I don't see what they're complaining about for complexity.

The other headache is object serialization over RMI. Deploy a new version of a EAR component and all it's clients must be recompiled with the updated classes that get serialized over RMI, otherwise the serialization fails. Ye gods, that's annoying! Components that talk to each other tend to be developed and deployed together anyway but shared services are real fun. NOT! I only pass around primitive types and dumb Value Objects where not all properties are set.

It's the RMI that's holding it back. If it could handle optional function parameters and optional properties on dumb, data objects, J2EE will still be here in 5 years.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New If you don't see what's complex about it...
... then try programming in something like Django for a while.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New That's a great way to put it.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Web Services
are basically killing off the original idea of J2EE's enterprise beans (which was what most people tend to think of J2EE is).

Think simplified J2EE Enterprise Bean - stateless, using XML and http protocol.

(Their biggest weakness is their lack of speed. Tux still blows them away...speaking as someone who'd like to see Tux die.)
New J2EE already has web services
EJB 2.1 application servers, such as JBoss 4, already support web services. A function in a stateless session bean can be invoked using RMI and SOAP. Good grief, you don't think I write stateful session beans, do you? It's not good that you have to wait for spec v3 till you don't need a third party code generator but it means the framework is starting to mature. I'd say that means it'll still be viable in 5 years time except the aforementioned pain of separate deployments will prompt a better system.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Does it really?
For presentation, the MVC frameworks like Struts allows a cleaner separation between workflow logic and view logic, aiding maintainability.
I tried several times to drink the MVC Kool Aid. It seemed like the Right Thing to Do™. Maybe I just wasn't looking at large enough systems to see the benefit, but I never saw anything I didn't think I could do in about half the code, and actually understand what was going on as a bonus.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New It does
I find that working in an MVC framework that I'll spend lots of time fighting the framework for one item, and curse it.

Then I'll do a dozen things and realize, "You know, that was easy."

The framework certainly channels you into working its way. When you can do that, it pays off big. When you can't, it is a real pain. It pays off more often than not, so is a net win.

Cheers,
Ben
a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett
New That's the problem with "Hello World" examples
It's so much process to do a simple thing, it's painful to use. I finally gave up on the idea of learning it in isolation. If I go somewhere that uses it, and I have to care about it, I'll learn it then.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That is probably the way to do it
a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing. -- Warren Buffett
New "Half the code" isn't the issue.
If you don't separate them, you end up with either:

a) logic snarled up with some equivalent to println or
b) templates snarled up with embedded scripts.

Both are a maintenance nightmare.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New What he said
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
     One for Todd: Java Enterprise Edition to be dead in 5 years. - (Another Scott) - (14)
         It's already dead. - (admin) - (2)
             They have said that about OS/2 for years. - (folkert) - (1)
                 'They' say it about everything except Windows. -NT - (imric)
         Unless RMI gets fixed - (warmachine) - (10)
             If you don't see what's complex about it... - (admin) - (1)
                 That's a great way to put it. -NT - (folkert)
             Web Services - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                 J2EE already has web services - (warmachine)
             Does it really? - (drewk) - (5)
                 It does - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                     That's the problem with "Hello World" examples - (drewk) - (1)
                         That is probably the way to do it -NT - (ben_tilly)
                 "Half the code" isn't the issue. - (admin) - (1)
                     What he said -NT - (warmachine)

I don't think you're happy enough!
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