IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 1 active user | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New It was on appeal....
since he died before the appeal was finished, the court can move to vacate the charges -- thus he was never charged.

What he couldn't do in the courtroom, former Enron Chairman Ken Lay may finally be able to achieve in death \ufffd avoid a criminal record.

Lay, 64, who died of a heart attack in Aspen, Colo., early Wednesday morning, will likely have his case vacated, meaning it will be as if he were never charged.

Government efforts to seize more than $43 million in assets from him through criminal proceedings will likely also end with his death, although the government could file civil forfeiture proceedings.
[link|http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4027259.html| Houston Chron ]

With his death from a massive heart attack today, Ken Lay cheated justice. And then some. Not only will the Enron founder not end his days in prison, but according to legal precedent, his entire case will be erased from the records.

That means that, in legal terms at least, Lay was never convicted, tried or even indicted for Enron misdeeds.

For Lay's estate, and his widow Linda, the positive implication of this grim day is that the government now has no means to collect on its forfeiture claim against Lay for $43.5 million.

It's hard to believe, but the case law on this point is crystal clear, says Peter Henning, professor at Wayne State University Law School. "The idea is that you can't punish a dead person. It's not fair," says Henning. "Lay didn't get a chance to go in front of a court of appeals, which he had an absolute legal right to do."
[link|http://www.forbes.com/work/management/2006/07/05/lay_cheats_justice_cz_ch_0705laycheats.html| Forbes ]
Expand Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 12:56:47 PM EDT
New Is forfeiture "punishment"?
If I steal your car, am convicted of theft, then die before I can appeal, does my wife get to keep the car? I'm going to have to keep this in mind if I ever get anything terminal.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Don't forget those you could possibly
Owe money to.

You know like write me a check from that bank that the Internet keeps asking for my username and password. I didna even know I had accounts at some of those banks.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New True, why does debt not count?
One of the articles about Lay said the concept of finality holds that the state doesn't really consider someone "guilty" until they've exhausted all appeals.

Let's say I've got some heavy-duty debt. I tell the creditors I don't intend to pay them back, and never did plan to. That makes it theft, right? But that's civil, not criminal ... why? And why does that obligation outlive you, but criminal forfeiture doesn't? How would I get my debt turned into a criminal matter so I can have it wiped out by my death?

Now there's some creative estate planning for you.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New The criminal charges are dropped
but the civil charges can go forward.

The trouble in Lay's case is that, without the criminal charges (and conviction) can the civil charges go forward? Did Lay commit a crime when he was CEO? If he didn't, why do you think you (or anyone else) is owed money from the Lay Estate?

Here's a good one for you though. Let's say you're a big time CEO and you're committing bad things left and right. The government is onto you. You've been convicted (but not sentenanced) and the government is looking at coming for your $40 million.

And your wife decided that she might want 40 million a lot more than visiting you in jail.
Expand Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 02:08:48 PM EDT
     Ken Lay, Enron founder, dead. - (bepatient) - (24)
         I must have my tinfoil beanie on too tight - (drewk) - (5)
             Not really.... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                 Or maybe your beanie is tuned to the same frequency as mine -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                     Nyah...we just saying its possible.... - (Simon_Jester)
             Mine was tighter - (broomberg) - (1)
                 I agree - (imqwerky)
         justice got cheated - (lincoln) - (14)
             Sure, he got off lucky cause he's DEAD. - (bepatient) - (9)
                 tell you what - (lincoln) - (8)
                     What---evah. -NT - (bepatient)
                     you're going a bit hard-core....but there are better - (Simon_Jester) - (6)
                         He was already convicted. - (bepatient) - (5)
                             It was on appeal.... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                                 Is forfeiture "punishment"? - (drewk) - (3)
                                     Don't forget those you could possibly - (folkert) - (2)
                                         True, why does debt not count? - (drewk) - (1)
                                             The criminal charges are dropped - (Simon_Jester)
             Could've been worse. - (Simon_Jester)
             Just had a little chat with DEATH - (Ashton) - (2)
                 Unfortunately, he won't care. - (admin)
                 That reminds me... (new thread) - (imqwerky)
         Don't believe it. - (mmoffitt)
         Guess it really *was* a life sentence, after all.... -NT - (jb4)
         Here's the funny thing - (drewk)

Learn to love the Questions.
--Rilke, Rainer Maria
244 ms