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New Net Neutrality amendment defeated in US House. Good/Bad?
An amendment offered by Rep. Markey to the [link|http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c109FRXjIl|Communications Opportunity, Promotion, and Enhancement Act of 2006] act was defeated yesterday in a vote of 152 to 269. The amendment is commonly referred to as Net Neutrality. The text of the amendment is buried in the debate [link|http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?r109:./temp/~r109d14FDp|transcript]. It begins at about 45% of the way from the top of the page:

Amendment No. 7 offered by Mr. Markey:

Strike section 201 of the bill and insert the following:

SECTION 201. NETWORK NEUTRALITY.


The debate is less than enlightening.

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/08/AR2006060802087.html|Washington Post] story:

Critics of the bill include cities and other localities, which resent the loss of control over the franchising process, as well as "net neutrality" proponents, who argue that the measure does not go far enough to preserve consumers' ability to get whatever content they want over the Internet.

"Net neutrality" advocates believe that phone and cable companies should be barred from blocking, slowing down or otherwise discriminating against the Internet content that flows over their networks. They fear network owners will cut deals to give some content providers priority delivery, putting those who don't pay for this at a disadvantage.

Phone and cable companies say they will not block Web sites but should be allowed to manage their networks -- which handle an ever-increasing amount of traffic -- and to charge more to those who want guaranteed fast delivery.

The House rejected by a vote of 152 to 269 an amendment sponsored by Rep. Edward J. Markey (D-Mass.) that would have required phone and cable companies to run their networks in a "nondiscriminatory" manner.

Instead, lawmakers adopted a weaker provision that would seek full access to content for consumers but would not explicitly forbid network owners from giving some content favorable or unfavorable treatment. The provision also bars the FCC from writing detailed rules to enforce "net neutrality."

"The telephone companies have made clear that they can create a fast lane that will require extra payments and a slow lane for everyone else who can't afford it. That is a fundamental change in the history of the Internet, and it will adversely affect millions of Internet users across our country," Markey said in an interview before his amendment was voted down.

During the debate, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Tex.), chairman of the House Commerce Committee, said the bill sought to "strike the right balance between ensuring that the public Internet remains an open, vibrant marketplace and ensuring that Congress does not hand the FCC a blank check to regulate Internet services.

"We don't need anybody to be the first secretary of the Internet," he added.


It seems reasonable to me that ISPs should be able to throttle massive BitTorrent downloads so that people who are doing web browsing and e-mail have reasonable response times. And it seems reasonable to me that people who must have ns ping times in their RPGs should expect to pay more for that than someone who's using a BlackBerry or Treo to check their stocks. In that sense, a "tiered" Internet seems fine to me. I don't like the idea of, say, AOL giving MS-Search quicker response times than Yahoo! Search as a result of some marketing agreement between them. ISPs "taxing" the delivery of content to a user would also be a bad idea. Once a person pays for their bandwidth, they should be able to get whatever (legal) content they want. In that sense, a "tiered" Internet seems like a bad idea to me. I also don't see a problem with ISPs charging more for fiber than for DSL and fiber having better performance than DSL, thus technological tiering seems fine to me. Tiering by marketing, on the other hand, could be abused.

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702108.html|Lawrence Lessig]'s OpEd says Net Neutrality is a good thing. FCC Chairman Kevin Martin [link|http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7BD093217B-CCE6-42DE-947F-12395F413280%7D&keyword=|says] rules are in place to prevent discrimination (and the proponents of the bill says other protections will be available if the bill becomes law) and that it's too early to enact Net Neutrality rules.

Where's the beef in this argument? What will the House bill actually do that the Markey amendment would have prevented? I've got a bias toward Lessig's position, but I had a bias toward Boies' arguements in the Napster case too...

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I thought the beef was network owner provided services...
...getting preferential treatment over identical services provided by someone else. (e.g. Comcast degrading/disabling Skype and other's VOIP traffic but not their own.) This seems to have gotten buried as well somewhere along the line.

New I posted about this awhile back but never got any feedback
wrong [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=255272|forum] I 'spose. :-/

What bothered me was the aspect of "tollbooths and speedbumps". It goes against the very nature of the Internet. I was surprised that no one on here got hot and bothered.

Oh well, I did my part and emailed my congresscritters.

Nobody messes with my internet! :)
New The forum was fine.
I saw it, but didn't pay much attention to the issue until today. Honestly, I like to research public policy issues on my own before jumping to conclusions and supporting "write your Congressman!!!" campaigns. I've looked at positions for and against COPE and the Net Neutrality amendment and can't say that I've decided which side makes more sense yet.

I agree that it could be worrrying; the Devil's in the details. We'll have to see if the FCC and AT&T [link|http://www.networkingpipeline.com/news/183701554|keep their promises] about nondiscriminatory internet service.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Generally, I don't post such things
but I thought it merited attention. Being in the "Telecom Corridor", we got a bit more press about it here. I understand what you are saying. I don't blindly react to those emails I receive either. I like to check them out.

:)
New :-)
New Here is the issue as I understand it
Companies like Google want to just pay someone for network bandwidth and get that bandwidth. As long as they pay for their bandwidth, they want to be able to receive consumers. Google's nightmare is that it could wind up facing ISPs who are deliberately slowing down Google's traffic so that they can leverage a local monopoly on network traffic into new lines of business.

The network companies have a huge issue right now. They are in the business of oversubscribing their lines and planning on people not actually using all of their capacity. But with p2p software, people actually are using that capacity. And network companies can't readily change their available bandwidth. So they'd like to prioritize things so that they can claim to be offering the same thing, but they can discourage p2p bandwidth hogs.

The network companies have a second huge issue as well. And that is the fact that many of them are in the business of selling telephone subscriptions. But traditional telephones seem likely to go the way of the dodo in a couple of years. (Already a significant fraction of people choose not to have them.) So they'd like to maintain that monopoly for longer. If they just slow down VoIP traffic, they can technically provide the service but make it unusable.

It looks like the telephone companies won. And I confidently predict that while the telephone companies do not currently plan to do what Google fears, in a few years we'll see this issue come up again as they do.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Think about the leverage of TW/AOL and their ability
to throttle content to their customers from Google, simply because they signed a deal with MSN.

What if Microsoft buys Comcast? What guarantee does their competition have to free and unhindered access.

If net neutrality is not guaranteed, the next takeover target of google, microsoft and the big players will be backbone providers...then things will get really ugly and the internet as we know it will be dead dead dead.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New It'll be dead dead dead in the US
but it won't be dead dead dead.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Can be dead dead dead here soon as more people do DNS
We've been working real hard here in the U.S. to make ourselves unnecessary components to every kind of business we're in. It's only a matter of time before the rest of the world realized it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I've thought about it
As I said, that's Google's worry about the situation.

However I really don't think that desire to do that is a primary motivation for the telcos. If it was, then they'd be doing it already.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New They'll try...and fail.
Telecoms should beware. Google, Microsoft and Ebay are king and the law protects the Telecom and Cable companies -- not the content provider.

Telecoms want to charge more for higher bandwidth services. Fine...lets assume they do so and charge Google, Microsoft and Ebay more.

Ebay screams bloody murder. Cuts off all access to IP address from said Telecom. Their users (and anyone going through their pipes) can't reach Ebay. An economic hit for Ebay as they lose customers (who struggle to find new internet providers) and the Telecoms drop their ISP connections to customers and provide only Trunk services.

The Telecoms chortle with glee. They're making more and not having to deal with customers anymore (less cost).

Then Google demands access at 1/3 cost. Telecoms are agast! Cut costs for Google?

Microsoft announces Micro-Fiber...a new backbone connecting several major ISPs (AOL, MSN and Earthlink) -- which incidently match the current Telecoms backbone. (Microsoft has how much cash on hand?)

Google recontacts the Telecoms. 1/6 profit is better than no profit (which is what they face if Google goes with Micro-Fiber...and is thinking of it). Telecoms pray for a turf war between Microsoft and Google....but Ebay and Google both decide that Micro-Fiber is far cheaper (and Google is considering their own Goo-Fiber if costs increase too much)

3 years later, Telecoms backbone is known for a high speed connection to a collection of poorly run p0rn sites and hacker-wares. The Government is called in to clean up these sites and a judge determines that if Telecoms can be fined if they don't clean up their act.

Things go downhill from there for the Telecoms.
New Nice dream
Won't work.

The problem is not backbone. The problem is the last mile. And building a network to compete with the telecoms is expensive to build. With cable or telephone it averages about $1500/house. That figure is fairly constant across many cities. Microsoft's infamous cash reserves would not suffice to create a competing network out of thin air.

Secondly companies are pragmatic. If Comcast slows eBay's traffic, it would be suicide for eBay to retaliate by blocking Comcast outright. Because most Comcast customers are locked in to Comcast in the near future, they are not locked in to eBay. And if eBay voluntarily gave up a large share of its market, eBay would suddenly be faced with not being the market leader. This would get very ugly, very fast. And even in the unlikely event that eBay succeeded in forcing Comcast to change its bullying ways, eBay would have just opened the door for a competitor (eg Amazon) to take over the online auction business.

No, Google et al are worried because the telecom companies ARE left with the power in this relationship, and everyone knows it.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New There is a risk there....
but it's not the last mile that is the problem.

We've shown that ISPs can handle the last mile easily enough. I've got friends that started (and sold off) their ISP business. I've got one now that's doing wireless (he built a tower on his land) because he couldn't DSL/Cable for high speed and he needed it. So he had them pipe T1 to his place and put up a tower and provide ISP service to neighbors offset the cost.

The trunks are the issue. The people behind this are MCI, BellSouth, AT&T etc who own the trunks. They do have a point -- the VoIP is going to eat their regular trunk business (which is where their bread and butter has been) in the couple of years.

And I still say that the content providers can (if they're brave enough to do it) cause far more havoc for the trunk owners than vice versa. *I* have switched services (from Cablevision to DSL) because of poor access. I've got a friend that's switched twice.

And with services like Gmail and others...the cost of switching (not actual dollars, but the pain involved) grows less each day.

Google et. al. are worried. But I think everyone has been looking at this wrong.
New Last mile can be overcome
access to the pipes is becoming ubiquitous...the telcos don't hold all the cards as they used to. Media companies can replace them...and are. Comcast is NOT a telco. AOL/Time Warner is NOT a telco. Between them they provide quite a bit of access. They rely on the big boys for the backbone. Even >that< isn't as much a barrier to entry as it used to be.

Many here are thinking about the development of the net as it was. That is not where it is going...the players are blurring the lines between content and access...and that will continue. Net neutrality is absolutely critical to this natural evolution process.


Of course...this is my opinion. I don't think I would have held the same opinion without the last 12 months of employment in the telecom biz, though. We get alot of "futurespeak" guys to come in...and one of them gave a presentation on the convergence of players in net space...it was eye-opening.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Indian Guy from Atlanta?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Nope..he's from upstate NY.
Written a couple of books...runs a "consultancy". Was invited to speak not too long ago...was actually pretty good.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New must be an Industry of their own then
Guy we had gave a "competetive landscape" 1 day course that reinforced some of my own thinking over the last few years.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New That's some powerful stuff you're smok'n there!
Compared to the telecoms Google, Microsoft and eBay are worth beans. Market capitalization is irrelevent here, it is as the morning fog - ready to be burned off in a moment.

What does Microsoft have? Some poorly written and rapidly aging code that'll fit on a couple dozen CDs, and a few buildings. Google and eBay have far less.

What do the telecoms have? They have wire, fiber, poles, conduits, vaults, tunnels, switches, and other infrastructure worth more than the GNP of most countries. They have control of a sufficient number of legislators and an ironclad back-room monopoly.

So Microsoft's going to hang their fiber on who's poles, pass it through who's vaults, tunnels and conduits? Yeah, sure.

Google, Microsoft and eBay - their life blood flows throught the telecoms at the pleasure of the telecoms. There is no contest here.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New See, that's why we have the CRTC up here
They are the regulatory body that deals with that sort of stuff. I know they've smacked BellNexxia around a few times for shenanigans... and their word is literally law in the business.

So far, they've done a pretty good job. Was talking to a reactionary about gov reg up here not too long ago (family member) and I pointed out to him that without the CRTC forcing the telco's to split off wire provision from ISP service and offer it to all (including themselves) at identical rates, my cousin's ISP would have folded years ago as Bell leveraged their monopoly on the last mile to shut out anyone else out of broadband access over their wire.

I just wish they would take a similar approach to the cable companies, but they don't have monopoly status in television provision like Bell does in phone provision, so they get treated differently.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Bad



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:44:28 AM EDT
New putting on my provider hat here
you pay me for bandwidth, I also spend millions to store information for and about you. Free unfettered access to content that you then store on my datacenter is a cost. I like to mitigate that by not providing you with all content aimed at you, just content that you have requested. The way that bill is/was written I could not stop spammers pharmers and phishers from contacting you and storing all that crap at great expense in case you ever did want to look at it.

AOL is facing heat over a product called goodmail. It is being presented as a tollbooth highspeed access to user inboxes. It isnt. It is precleared moneybacked guarrantied that no "evul" creatures use it. Therefore IWE dont have to spend cpucycles at great expense to examine it for crap features. If my user complains, I bitch at goodmail and they clean it up, reimburse me and my enduser with much apologies and we go on.
{note we dont use goodmail here so have no axe to grind}

Now as to ISP's signing preferred pipe deals to content providers. I have or can have QOS in my network now.Is there a financial benefit to $MS vonage to sell my own solution? No. We charge a little bit more but the vonage people would call my help centers and the cost of that FAR outweighs any perceived profits from our service. We believe that the advantage we have is "We can make it happen!" you have a problem and we fix it with friendly knowledgable US based staff that believe in the company. Customer service is not an afterthought here, its the prime directive.

So the market will sort out last mile quibling and those that have highspeed pipes to the house will be struggling mightily in the next few years for ownership of those customers. Content based tollroads may help defer some costs but are not a major impact on customer retention and customer retention is the absolute end point that all providers are facing.

Customer aquisition costs
For example a cost for a sattelite provider to aquire a customer is about $630 in equipment and installation fees. They want a one year contract, at the base package $38 a month how long does it take to break even. CAC (customer aqusition costs) are lower for the cable and telcos because wiring is usually in place already but it is significant. So the major way to make money on the internet is to keep existing customers and to get all houses that have a stub to your company to get phone, Television and internet content from you. Side deals on content in mini money and not a real player.

Now all the internet structure has to be paid for. Costs to block kiddie porn, spam, phishing pharming etc from impacting customers lives have a real and growing cost. So when a company sez, my stuff is never
nasty, please whitelist me for convenience to your company and we will reimburse the cost of handling that traffic I have a welcome ear. Its not stopping you the user from accessing any content you wish within the terms of the subscriber agreement, it just alleviates som of the pain of the providers costs.
my 2 centavos
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Interesting. Thanks for your comments.
New Other side of the coin
[link|http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/2006/06/craigslist_is_b.php|http://www.siliconva...aigslist_is_b.php]

I use Cox cable internet, Cox's media empire printed classifieds is one of their big revenue drivers. Guess what? If you try to access Craigslist over Cox Cable internet... its nearly impossible! It appears that they throttle access to craigslist - as a matter of fact there have been a zillion complaints but hey, who can blame Cox? They're trying to stop the opening cap in their money dam! Maybe you should investigate this tip further. Cheers
I did investigate further, I walked out of my apartment and across Alamo Square and popped in on Jim Buckmaster, the CEO of Craigslist. Jim was just getting back from work and I spoke with Susan Best, publicist for Craigslist. Susan said they have known about the problem with Cox.

Jim soon arrived and said the problem of access had been going on since late February. It had something to do with the security software that Cox isusing from a company called Authentium.

Cox has been collaborating with Authentium since April 2005 to develop the security software suite.

Back on February 23rd Authentium acknowledged that their software is blocking Craigslist but it still hasn't fixed the problem, more than three months later. That's a heck of long time to delete some text from their blacklist. And this company also supplies security software to other large ISPs.

Craigslist has approached Authentium several times to get it to stop blocking access by Cox internet users but it has been unresponsive. Jim wasn't aware that Cox had its own classified ads service. "That changes things, " he said.

This situation does not look good in the context of the net neutrality debate. This is exactly the kind of scenario that many people are concerned about, that the cable companies and the telcos will make it difficult for their internet users to access competing services.
---------------
Might be incompetence. But it might be a sign of things to come.





[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:46:41 AM EDT
New I've never had a problem getting Criag's List from Cox.
But I don't use Cox's [link|http://forums.craigslist.org/?ID=39241124|Security Suite] though. Cox claims Craig's List sends some [link|http://support.cox.com/sdcxuser/asp/cox_main.asp|nonstandard packets] (Click on the "Cox Security Suite and Craig's List" link. Man I hate redirected .asp URLs...) that the firewall software doesn't like. They're working on a fix and have a beta available.

I don't believe that most ISPs intentionally block legal competitive products and services. I think this is just another example of the side effects of using "protection software". Just like [link|http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,43576,00.html|this]:

AOL had previously contracted with SurfControl to operate its parental controls. While RuleSpace's system will be mostly automated, SurfControl's SurfWatch -- like many filtering products -- relied on human editors to make the final call on which sites should get blocked.

Automated and manual types of analysis both have drawbacks. A team of editors can only review a tiny fraction of the seven million new websites added to the Web every day. But automated filters have become notorious among civil libertarians for "over-blocking" sites based on just one blacklisted keyword. For example, the ACLU likes to point out that conservative Congressman Dick Armey's website is blocked by a popular filter.


The way to avoid these problems is to not use filtering software like this.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New wont reply online except to state that
the company in question is NOT, repeat NOT! intentionally blocking that site, it is a 3rd party issue. Collaberating is too strong a word.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New 6/12/2006 Washington Post Editorial.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100707.html|Washington Post]:

Monday, June 12, 2006; Page A20

THE SENATE will hold hearings tomorrow on "net neutrality," the idea that the pipes and wires that form the Internet should treat all content equally. An alliance whose membership ranges from the Christian Coalition to MoveOn.org is demanding that Congress write this neutrality into law; the groups fear that the pipe owners -- cable companies, phone companies and so on -- might otherwise deliver corporate content at high speed for high fees, while consigning political Web sites and hobbyists to a slow information byway. These arguments are amplified by the big Internet firms -- Google, Microsoft, eBay -- that want their services delivered fast but don't want the pipe owners to extract fees from them. Although this coalition lost a House vote last week, its prospects are stronger in the Senate. (The Washington Post Co. owns broadband networks that might charge Web sites for fast delivery. It also produces Web content that might be subject to such fees, so it has interests on both sides of this issue.)

[...]

More than 60 percent of Zip codes in the United States are served by four or more broadband providers that compete to give consumers what they want -- fast access to the full range of Web sites, including those of their kids' soccer league, their cousins' photos, MoveOn.org and the Christian Coalition. If one broadband provider slowed access to fringe bloggers, the blogosphere would rise up in protest -- and the provider would lose customers.


It makes some good points, but minimizes the fact that Google and Amazon and the other big information sources already pay a lot for their ability to provide lots of information to lots of people quickly. It also minimizes the lack of competition that many of us see in broadband. E.g. My only choice is cable even though I live in the [link|http://www.fairfaxcountyeda.org/industry_sectors.htm|"Home of the Internet"]. DSL isn't an option due to my neighborhood being partially wired with optical fiber (or some such thing), satellite internet has too many issues, there's only one cable provider, etc. I would guess that for most people, the only reasonable choices are DSL (which is ultimately tied to the local telephone company) and cable and moving between them isn't something that one does like changing brands of gasoline.

Ultimately, they come out against the Net Neutrality amendment. We'll have to see what comes out of the Senate.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Richard Bennett interview at The Reg.
[link|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/17/net_neut_slow_death/|How 'Saving The Net' may kill it] - The engineer's case against Net Neutrality.

He makes some good points.

Cheers,
Scott.
     Net Neutrality amendment defeated in US House. Good/Bad? - (Another Scott) - (27)
         I thought the beef was network owner provided services... - (scoenye)
         I posted about this awhile back but never got any feedback - (imqwerky) - (3)
             The forum was fine. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                 Generally, I don't post such things - (imqwerky) - (1)
                     :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
         Here is the issue as I understand it - (ben_tilly) - (13)
             Think about the leverage of TW/AOL and their ability - (bepatient) - (12)
                 It'll be dead dead dead in the US - (jake123) - (1)
                     Can be dead dead dead here soon as more people do DNS - (drewk)
                 I've thought about it - (ben_tilly)
                 They'll try...and fail. - (Simon_Jester) - (8)
                     Nice dream - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         There is a risk there.... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                             Last mile can be overcome - (bepatient) - (3)
                                 Indian Guy from Atlanta? -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                     Nope..he's from upstate NY. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                         must be an Industry of their own then - (boxley)
                     That's some powerful stuff you're smok'n there! - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         See, that's why we have the CRTC up here - (jake123)
         Bad -NT - (tuberculosis)
         putting on my provider hat here - (boxley) - (4)
             Interesting. Thanks for your comments. -NT - (Another Scott)
             Other side of the coin - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 I've never had a problem getting Criag's List from Cox. - (Another Scott)
                 wont reply online except to state that - (boxley)
         6/12/2006 Washington Post Editorial. - (Another Scott)
         Richard Bennett interview at The Reg. - (Another Scott)

About Three Miles long and right up the wazoo.
195 ms