For the most part I agree, but the weaknesses and inconsistencies on the database language side means you usually have to put up with code generation. Me, I hate even having those wizards that attempt to shell out the beginnings of code. (I've always thought that the stuff microsoft did to try and make it easy to program windows apps in C++ the [link|http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/helloworld/visualc++.html|worst evar language experience].