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New Why Vista is not built on .NET
[link|http://darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=93335&WT.svl=column1_1|http://darkreading.c...&WT.svl=column1_1]

At the scientifically rigorous USENIX security conference in August 2005, I caught up in the hallway with Butler Lampson after his excellent keynote talk. Butler is a legendary scientist, and he has done plenty of great pontificating about security, privacy, software, and technology. Like many superior computer scientists, Butler now works for Microsoft Research.

I asked Butler why it was that Longhorn (Vista's codename at the time) was not built out of a type-safe language like those available for the .NET framework. He shook his head in dismay and decried the fact that we had let another great opportunity to make a huge impact on computer security pass us by. He said that opportunities like this come only once every decade or so in his experience and that he had seen four attempts to cause widescale adoption of type-safe languages founder on the rocks throughout his career.

The problem, it turns out, is that the .NET builders did not give much thought to providing many of the essential basic building blocks that operating systems construction crews need for their work. Interpreted code has some minor performance issues as well (note that there are many ways to overcome this often overly shrill critique). But the main problem was that the Microsoft OS guys are big C++ users. Getting them to switch over to C# was for these reasons not in the cards.
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Not that I think the type systems of Java or C# are any good, but they are a little better than C/C++.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New Seem to recall you decrying type systems of any sort....
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New A typesafe language is preferable to C/C++
Whether it is preferable to a dynamic language is another story entirely. But, for instance, "no buffer overflows" would be worth quite a bit in my books. (And I suspect Todd's as well.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New The problem is that C/C++ has a typed compiler
but not a typed runtime. Once you're in memory you can do anything damned well please. So you get all of the pain and limited amounts of the benefit of a typesafe system.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New The opposite is true
I like type systems that work. Specifically, I like dynamic type systems. I like that you can look at any set of bits in a Smalltalk executable and know exactly WTF you are looking at (because of bit tagging).

I dislike shit like C++ which cheerfully tosses all type information into the bit bucket at compile time.

C does this too, but C is a useful tool that is hardware oriented (a sometimes necessary evil) but Smalltalk (and hopefully all application development languages) is a tool designed to be human oriented (as evidenced by an ongoing discussion about array indexing on the Squeak list where in the expression

1 to: 5 do: [:n | ...]

n will take on the values { 1, 2, ... 5} rather than the machine oriented C where to get that set you say

for(i=1; i < 6; ++i)
).

So I like type systems that are helpful. I dislike typing a lot of mumbo jumbo just so the compiler can throw it away.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New Amen to that
When I read that, an old part of the brain came up with
for I := 1 to 5 do
which doesn't require translation.

Still, Java code like for (ItemVO item: items) is a tiny step in the right direction and enumerated types are long overdue.

Bloody derivative of structured assembly language.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New dot-net is a Java competitor
dot-net chased Java because Java started kicking VB's butt in sales. Thus, it is not geared to compete with systems software languages, but big expensive domain apps where Java is targeted. Nobody would write an OS in Java either (Java practically is an OS).
________________
oop.ismad.com
     Why Vista is not built on .NET - (tuberculosis) - (6)
         Seem to recall you decrying type systems of any sort.... -NT - (jb4) - (4)
             A typesafe language is preferable to C/C++ - (ben_tilly)
             The problem is that C/C++ has a typed compiler - (admin)
             The opposite is true - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                 Amen to that - (warmachine)
         dot-net is a Java competitor - (tablizer)

Anything that ugly should die and be eaten at breakfast.
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