New Microsoft Browser Raises Google's Hackles

[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/01/technology/01google.html?hp&ex=1146542400&en=76dac6927c261199&ei=5094&partner=homepage|New Microsoft Browser Raises Google's Hackles]

... The new browser includes a search box in the upper-right corner that is typically set up to send users to Microsoft's MSN search service. Google contends that this puts Microsoft in a position to unfairly grab Web traffic and advertising dollars from its competitors.

The move, Google claims, limits consumer choice and is reminiscent of the tactics that got Microsoft into antitrust trouble in the late 1990's.

"The market favors open choice for search, and companies should compete for users based on the quality of their search services," said Marissa Mayer, the vice president for search products at Google. "We don't think it's right for Microsoft to just set the default to MSN. We believe users should choose."

Or at least they should be....

In this case, it depends on how Microsoft does it and how easy it is to change. Gryg makes a good point that most machines stay with the default settings. We also know that MS is very jealous of Google's marketshare in search (and advertising) and they're throwing money at the problem to try to cut Google down to size. There are reasons to be very suspicious of Microsoft's plans here. They shouldn't be allowed to unfairly crush Google through bundling the way they killed Netscape.

My gut tells me that this is an important issue for Google (and Yahoo for that matter). In an ideal world, it wouldn't be decided in the courts (because MS would have been broken up long ago). When Vista starts up, it should ask for the user's choice for default search engine when it asks for network settings and the like.

I fear that if it goes to court it'll be 5-10 years before there's any finality and by that time either Google will be dead or Microsoft will be broken up making any court decision moot.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #253,974 by bluke 5/1/06 6:42:10 AM Reply	New Microsoft Browser Raises Google's Hackles [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/01/technology/01google.html?hp&ex=1146542400&en=76dac6927c261199&ei=5094&partner=homepage\|New Microsoft Browser Raises Google's Hackles] ... The new browser includes a search box in the upper-right corner that is typically set up to send users to Microsoft's MSN search service. Google contends that this puts Microsoft in a position to unfairly grab Web traffic and advertising dollars from its competitors. The move, Google claims, limits consumer choice and is reminiscent of the tactics that got Microsoft into antitrust trouble in the late 1990's. "The market favors open choice for search, and companies should compete for users based on the quality of their search services," said Marissa Mayer, the vice president for search products at Google. "We don't think it's right for Microsoft to just set the default to MSN. We believe users should choose."
Post #254,016 by JayMehaffey 5/1/06 12:53:39 PM Reply	Old school MS tactic If they are following the old school MS tactics, the option is not nearly as easy to change as they imply. And one or more pieces of MS software will require it be set to MSN to work correctly, and it will randomly and silently revert to pointing to MSN every so often, and setting it to anything but MSN will somehow make the whole computer less stable. Actually, I don't think this is an anti-trust violation unless MS has done something to make it hard to change or otherwise tried to tie it up. But MS has a history of doing those very things, so it certainly is worth investigating. Jay
Post #254,028 by jb4 5/1/06 1:43:36 PM Reply	Open letter to Google: This surprises you how? luv, jb4 jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #254,076 by andread 5/1/06 4:15:27 PM Reply	Google Whines about nothing it took almost 20 seconds to change the default to google MS provides a site to help you change sinister bastards aren't they A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #254,081 by Andrew Grygus 5/1/06 5:08:27 PM Reply	Microsoft doesn't care that you know how to change it. They know full well only a tiny percentage of users will change any defaults whatever - the majority because they're afraid to. I used to see a fair number of machines that still displayed Windows 98 install welcome message because people were afraid to click the little check mark off. Most of the Windows XP computers I see out there still default to MSN as the default home page, not because the users want MSN but becsause that's the way it came. I routinely switch them to Google because MSN takes too long to load when I'm working with the computer - once changed to Google they stay there forever. The site and the ability to turn off (at least the obvious part of) the search feature is so they can point to it, just as you have, knowing full well it doesn't matter. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #254,087 by pwhysall 5/1/06 6:46:09 PM Reply	Re: Google Whines about nothing You <---- some distance ----> The Point Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #254,088 by pwhysall 5/1/06 6:46:10 PM 5/1/06 6:47:18 PM Reply	Mysterious dupe. Ignore. I didn't double click or anything, though. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall May 1, 2006, 06:47:18 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #254,090 by boxley 5/1/06 6:58:32 PM Reply	whaddya mean? Ady has bin around fer ages I tend to side with him on this one. Netscape autodefaults to netscape search. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #254,092 by Another Scott 5/1/06 7:08:10 PM Reply	Things are different once you've been found to have a Monop. Or at least they should be.... In this case, it depends on how Microsoft does it and how easy it is to change. Gryg makes a good point that most machines stay with the default settings. We also know that MS is very jealous of Google's marketshare in search (and advertising) and they're throwing money at the problem to try to cut Google down to size. There are reasons to be very suspicious of Microsoft's plans here. They shouldn't be allowed to unfairly crush Google through bundling the way they killed Netscape. My gut tells me that this is an important issue for Google (and Yahoo for that matter). In an ideal world, it wouldn't be decided in the courts (because MS would have been broken up long ago). When Vista starts up, it should ask for the user's choice for default search engine when it asks for network settings and the like. I fear that if it goes to court it'll be 5-10 years before there's any finality and by that time either Google will be dead or Microsoft will be broken up making any court decision moot. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #254,093 by andread 5/1/06 7:27:09 PM Reply	so if there was no default then.... by the logic above most users couldn't search would that be better I'd guess most of them have no idea what the box is for I see mine punching in google or yahoo all the time A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #254,095 by jbrabeck 5/1/06 8:13:05 PM Reply	Not quite cuz everyone knows how to google or yahoo, which they would continue to do. But if they have to change something to do so, they'll just use whatever is the default. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #254,118 by andread 5/2/06 9:21:56 AM Reply	Some Info 1) if they go to google and are using IE7 a big red arrow from google comes up pointing to the search box and telling them they can change the default to google 2) as I stated before, if they are going to google or yahoo or wherever then they are not using the box for anything (which if the users are as ignorant as most of the posts in this thread imply then that if exactly what the box is "used" for) A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #254,119 by pwhysall 5/2/06 9:39:42 AM Reply	Irrelevant. It's all about the law. What users can do doesn't matter. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #254,716 by Arkadiy 5/7/06 8:32:44 PM Reply	This deserves to be framed and hung "What users can do doesn't matter." Indeed. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #254,777 by pwhysall 5/8/06 1:43:19 PM Reply	? Users can just install Firefox. Users can just install Linux. Users can just buy a Mac. I'm not sure I get your point. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #254,782 by drewk 5/8/06 1:55:48 PM Reply	Wasn't it your point to begin with? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #254,788 by pwhysall 5/8/06 3:37:20 PM Reply	Indeed But I'm not convinced it's the point that Ark took away from the post. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,347 by Arkadiy 5/13/06 1:04:31 PM Reply	None of my points are very flattering It does not matter that people are lazy and stupid The law will fix it. Or, it doe not matter that users can now do much more than they used to. We must have a law to ensure the ideal state, when those users can do _everything_ in the best possible way. There might be a couple more. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #255,414 by pwhysall 5/14/06 5:11:54 AM Reply	You've missed my point entirely. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #254,121 by inthane-chan 5/2/06 9:45:16 AM Reply	Better idea. First time IE starts, a dialog box pops up with major search engines, asking user to select one for the default search. When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your* security they're talking about.*
Post #254,127 by admin 5/2/06 10:07:43 AM Reply	Better better idea. Make sure it's a multi-select, and not a drop-down (with MSN pre-selected, natch). Otherwise the user will just hit "OK" and be done with it. They should have to pick from a list before continuing. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #254,111 by pwhysall 5/2/06 2:03:45 AM Reply	Go read up about having a monopoly And what you can and cannot do once you have one. While it's not illegal to have a monopoly in one or more markets, it's highly not legal to use that monopoly to leverage your entry or marketshare in another. In this case, MSIE having a default search option of MSN is leverage the OS/Browser monopoly in order to increase marketshare in the search market. Google and Firefox are not at all in the same position (Firefox doesn't own Google, and doesn't have any kind of monopoly). Just saying "it's configurable" is no defence. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #254,158 by jb4 5/2/06 1:53:22 PM Reply	Come on, Andy, not even you are that dense Matriculated at the BeeP School of Applied Rhetoric, did you? I see you mastered in Reductio ad Absurdum. Congratulations.... jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #254,202 by CRConrad 5/2/06 5:47:07 PM Reply	So, Andrea Dear, you still claim not to be an M$ $hill...?
Post #254,213 by altmann 5/2/06 7:17:45 PM Reply	Burn the Witch! Burn The Witch! The Devil's Advocate! In League With Satan! -- Chris Altmann
Post #254,648 by CRConrad 5/6/06 6:24:36 PM Reply	Bullpucky. Just let the fucker ADMIT what he is; how the fuck is that too much to ask? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #254,660 by andread 5/6/06 10:10:45 PM 5/7/06 5:46:21 PM Reply	Another Memo from the Chuckles at the DFSS Apparently Chuckles is with the DFSS (Department of Fundamentally Studpid Shit) Apparently no one can disagree with him in any legitimate manner typical totalitarian attitude For the x^th time where x > 5 I would be happy to take money from MS sadly they haven't offered a few years ago I was at a high school reunion and a very attractive classmate said that her husband was in computers too he worked at MS maybe I'd heard of it even she did not offer me any money it's a hell of a thing A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In] Edited by andread May 7, 2006, 05:46:21 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #254,380 by andread 5/4/06 9:11:26 AM Reply	Welcome to the 21st century, Chuckles Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #254,649 by CRConrad 5/6/06 6:30:37 PM Reply	You mean, where the new boss is the same as the old boss... ...and the new boss' shills are the same as the old boss' ones? Thanks, but I knew that already. It may come as news to you, though, that this century isn't yours to welcome anyone to. Let me welcome you to the 21st century, Shilly... Welcome to the century when evil empires that were corporations, not just states, started to crumble! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #254,658 by andread 5/6/06 9:59:02 PM Reply	To be replaced with what? I might be all for it if there was any chance A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #254,668 by boxley 5/6/06 11:34:22 PM Reply	I work for a largish firm we are the solution designers for an ISP. 1/2 the people use personal mac's. 3/4 of the folks have a desktop sun machine or linux machine. The only people using winders are the poor fucks who have to use the remedy ticketing system. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #254,674 by admin 5/7/06 8:42:03 AM Reply	Oh, jeez... Remedy is pretty bad. It's got a web interface though. I ran it on Linux using that. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #254,677 by inthane-chan 5/7/06 9:25:30 AM Reply	At least it's not Track-It.
Post #254,679 by boxley 5/7/06 9:40:18 AM Reply	not a useful web interface :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #254,199 by altmann 5/2/06 5:41:43 PM Reply	OEMs have control, FWIW OEMs can decide what search providers to list in IE7 and which one is default. Upgrades to IE7 from IE6 will retain the IE6 search settings. This will really only affect retail copies of Vista. -- Chris Altmann
Post #254,229 by ben_tilly 5/2/06 9:27:49 PM Reply	Microsoft would like to change that I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #254,818 by ChrisR 5/8/06 10:36:25 PM Reply	Turn about is fair play? Perhaps take the common search terms such as "microsoft" and "windows" and load them up with Linux and DOJ links.
Post #254,846 by folkert 5/9/06 12:03:53 PM Reply	Like we did with the "SCO" search term? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.

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