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Welcome to IWETHEY!

New I take it someone has been a baaaad boy.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Nope.
It is more an attitude adjustment. I don't typically like being taken for granted.

I also, don't like being gone off on.

I also, expect many things to change around here... shortly, due to my awakening. Not because *I* really want them to change, but because other people will feel compelled to change.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New You're adjusting it the wrong way.
1) I didn't "go off on you". Quite the opposite. I'll post the log if you care. Or you can try to point out where I did. Good luck with that.

2) Rants like this make me care less, not more.

3) No one is taking you for granted. Think back to all of the times I pleaded with you to ask people for donations, or start billing for the stuff you were doing (like my parents' website). Yeah, it was fairly often, wasn't it?

4) When I say I don't have time, don't translate that into "I don't care". I DON'T HAVE TIME. Caring about it and being able to do something about it are orthogonal. Pressuring me to make time will have the opposite effect. Pestering me about it will make me care less. I don't do this as a job, and I don't expect to have to treat it as one. No one is asking you to either. If you think that's the case, then it's an expectation you've created yourself out of thin air.

5) If that doesn't convince you, then think about this: I've already put at least 100 hours of time I DON'T HAVE into the new version of the software. I understand the flaws that need to be fixed. I care about getting them fixed. I also, however, have more important (*gasp* More important that Z! Say it ain't so!) things to take care of first, like a 2-year-old son with a birth that was unfortunately timed for the rewrite. And if the rewrite taken over two years, well, that's how it is. I wish it weren't, but it is. Yelling at me isn't going to change that.

6) Removing my access doesn't hurt me. It simply prevents me from helping you out when something goes wrong with Z.

7) Killing Jabber, refusing to answer my emails, and cutting the lines of communication doesn't solve anything. It's petulant behavior. I've been nothing but adult about this. Please do me the favor of responding in kind.

Do what you want, Greg, I'm not your parent, and I'm not going to yell or whine at you to get you to change. This is in your hands.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Okay. Let us be civil then.
First the log, of the conversation. More available if needed.

(10:30:43) scott^work entered the room.
(10:30:46) scott^work: whee
(10:30:58) moe: Was a wonderful
(10:31:17) moe: BTW, scott^work... could you please get crackin' on J?
(10:31:27) yendormike: oiscott
(10:32:02) moe: I am seeing the biggest thing holding Z to responding slowly is (manual) robots requesting so many things at once.
(10:32:26) scott^work: the problem right now is network, not Z
(10:32:35) moe: Right NOW yes.
(10:32:41) scott^work: pages are coming back from Z in under a second, but taking 25 seconds to get to the browser
(10:33:06) imqwerky left the room.
(10:33:27) moe: but overall performance is starting to crawl... and it is the single threaded output from Postgresql
(10:33:43) moe: true Zope responds quickly...
(10:34:13) moe: except that multiple hundreds of requests are taking its toll on PG.
(10:34:49) moe: So, if it is the network, show me the support
(10:35:05) moe: I see Postgres getting hammered when the rendering is slow
(10:35:32) moe: If it is a problem with my setup, show me where and I'll fix it.
(10:35:36) moe: I have been looking.
(10:35:50) scott^work: I didn't say it was a problem with your setup
(10:35:55) moe: Including changing the stack sizes and other performance related stuff
(10:36:09) moe: I even get it HERE at 100MBit/sec
(10:36:09) scott^work: there are a lot of network things you have no control over whatsoever.
(10:36:29) moe: I agree there scott.
(10:37:15) moe: But, since I control the entire wiring plant here at work... and the netowrking hardware... I still see it.
(10:37:32) scott^work: and if the hundreds of requests are taking their toll on PG, going multi-threaded won't help one bit. it will just get hammered worse.
(10:37:57) moe: Okay, so what DO YOU Suggest?
(10:38:12) moe: seperate PG from knight?
(10:39:24) scott^work: I'm not suggesting anything because I don't have any answers right now
(10:39:34) moe: based on what i am seeing from PG during the monitoring, it is the deep threads killing it, or the hundreds of threads killing it. It is waiting on itself to respond.
(10:40:01) moe: Some of these issues are taken care of in new versions
(10:40:16) scott^work: which aren't done
(10:40:33) moe: new versions of Postgres I meant
(10:41:10) scott^work: let me be frank with you, Greg. I'm staring at probably $15K of fucking septic tank work, if not more, so things like gratis side projects are taking a far back seat to stuff that makes money for me.
(10:41:17) scott^work: asking me to work on it isn't going to change that.
(10:41:23) moe: fine.
(10:41:25) moe: EOS
(10:41:50) moe: Only one comment.
(10:42:01) moe: When will it ever NOT take a back seat?
(10:42:15) moe: well question.
(10:42:40) moe: So, i guess you want me to PAY you for doing it.
(10:42:51) yendormike: Um, Greg...
(10:42:51) scott^work: uh, no
(10:42:57) scott^work: wrong guess
(10:43:01) yendormike: I don't see ANYWHERE he said anything like that.
(10:43:04) yendormike: Not even close.
(10:43:09) moe: mike step out
(10:43:19) yendormike: Er, no.
(10:43:28) moe: Mike fuck off, then
(10:44:03) moe: How much Gratis do I do, I have bills piling up just like all of you.
(10:44:25) moe: I have a new company just bilking me of cash right now.
(10:44:36) moe: I have a hardware budget out of this world
(10:44:53) moe: I really don;t ask for much.
(10:45:13) moe: Fine, ignore me.


  1. You didn't go off on me, sorry. I guess since you finally blew at me, after I have been asking *NOT* pestering. The "Get crackin'" wasn't intended to be a pestering, more of a tongue in cheek with evidence I have been collecting. But, as you see it, I was pestering. Okay. No problems.
  2. Rants like this... hmm. Okay. I'll have to stop ranting then. I meant no offense. BTW, I didn't mention anyone in particular, so how do you know it was aimed at you?
  3. Yeah, I like the fact that people never bitch and complain about the service they are getting. Or that never pester me about anything. Oh, yeah. I have just started my LLC. Unfortuneately, I have a really big Hardware Budget and now since this last litte incident (the Covad outage) I only have to spend MORE... even before I finally get my hardware I need to actually start offering service.
  4. Yeah. I went over the edge on translating "I don't have time" to "I don't care". Yeah. my bad. So, when will you have time? One other thing I typically like to live by:
    Let's not confuse effort, with results.
    But I guess, I should abandon it.
  5. Yes, once again, I need to drop the "Let's not confuse effort, with results." bit. That should make things all better. Yes, it has been two years. Causing a third party to not be able to a help because you don't want them to have access. Kind of the "NIH" syndrome. Sorry, that was uncalled for, I'll retract that last bit about NIH.

    Talking about flaws, some of the reasons *Z* has been slow are also relating to referral spam using exploits in the Zope 2.3.3 Application engine. Take a look at the last few months of *Z* usage statistics. See those wonderful hosts that all end up being related to two or three porn sites and/or porn hosting companies? I really enjoy paying for the bandwidth they are using. Yes, I guess I should ask for contributions to fund those Porn Sites. Yelling about it at you won't matter anyway, you just tune it out. I have really been trying to be nice and kind and patient. I guess I need to try harder.
  6. True, removing you access does hurt me, but I need to re-evaluate things. Sure you only have user status, no sudo access, only key-auth ssh login. I just need to get things to a set state before anything would have changed. And by the looks of things, its a good thing I did remove sudo access, realting to the next item
  7. Killing Jabberd, yes a bit over the top, but not uncalled for. You still have the MUD. Me not answering e-mail... well I did eventually answer it. I was busy during the time you sent it. Busy doing access clean-up. Its a good thing I did the clean-up. One of the other peoples that had sudo access tried to do some tasks for me, or should I say restore jabberd while I wanted it off. I am replying in Kind. I hope you understand my entire message.


I am telling you right now, that my being unreasonable in your judgement, is fine. Just understand I feel, that yes life is important, I really enjoy chatting and arguing with you (but not this way), about things in general. You are funny witty, interesting and fun to be around. But you telling me that you just don;t have the time... is just not tenable. Two years, while I understand you have Aidan now... maybe things are at a point where we should move to a CMS/forum style of software that is more easily maintained then. More easily for me to spend my time just updating it, regularly, rather than having to depend upon you to fix these things. And No, I am not telling you to goto hell... by saying these things, just that maybe it is about time we switch gears at this point.

Obviously, you are telling me you do not have time, which leads me to believe a dependence on your non-existant time would be a serious problems for us in the near, middle and far future, should anything break or fail completely. once again, this is not a "telling" of things to some, I want no problems.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Mind if I point something out (don't care if I do)?
If it be destiny that this place goes away because we can no longer be afforded the graciousness of our hosts and designers...this is understandable but causes me great sadness.

Please read the above and its wording CAREFULLY. We ALL understand the effort that you, Greg, put into this site so that we all can meet, banter, swap song titles, whatever. I would be crushed to think that I had a part in the dissolving of friendships that transcend this place because of an expectation of more charity on your part or Scott's.

We ALL understand that life can interfere and that personal issues can fuck up all of even the best made plans.

While i have nowhere near the knowledge of you in the management of the space so I will make no judgement about the robots and referral impacts versus the rewrite. I simply am not qualified.

But take this as comfort...I don't hold you responsible if a page takes a couple of seconds to load. It doesn't make me think less of you or anyone else involved (though primarily you) in the hosting of this place.

If it takes six months to scale this place under a rewrite...ok fine. If Scott can't get there for another 2 years...fine. If there are things happening with this site that are costing you financially...TELL US...I know I speak for EVERYONE when I say this. I know you have paypal and this is one place in the ether that I would consider gladly as a subscription to help offset these things for you.

Please...we're all in this together.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Amen, bro!
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New I, too, will be very sad if this place goes away
and I agree with BeeP that I would gladly throw money in the pot on a regular basis.

I'm getting verklempt here.
I love you guys and gals.

Stop looking at my signature!
Expand Edited by imqwerky April 25, 2006, 10:03:30 PM EDT
New And, please let me reiterate:
If it takes six months to scale this place under a rewrite...ok fine. If Scott can't get there for another 2 years...fine. If there are things happening with this site that are costing you financially...TELL US...I know I speak for EVERYONE when I say this. I know you have paypal and this is one place in the ether that I would consider gladly as a subscription to help offset these things for you.

While my finances have been more that a mess recently, if it takes a subscritpion to keep this place running, I'm IN!

(And BeeP, this agreeing with you time and time again is getting...tiresome! ;-) )
jb4
"Every Republican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Hey, I'm certainly happy this place is here.
I'm not really in a position to do a subscription, tho I could see doing the odd donation. Hopefully that'll change after I earn my degree. As for dealing with things like slow load times, I pretty much get to complain about as much as I'm paying, which is none, and AFAIC this is one of the best places on the net.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New So let me ask this:
Are the slow load times reall all that much of a problem? Yes, I know I probabaly contributed to them during the Evul Period in the Test Forum...(my bad...I didn't know....!), but hell, I wait longer for Microsoft software to load, or for a whole host of other things to occur than for pages to load here.

With the exception of posts from marlowe, it is worth the wait. I can certainly stand it....
jb4
"Every Republican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Me too and ditto also
I don't have paypal but it would be my pleasure to add this place to my check writing regimen once a month.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New Re: Okay. Let us be civil then.
First the log, of the conversation. More available if needed.

[...]
(10:44:03) moe: How much Gratis do I do, I have bills piling up just like all of you.

Note: The above is the last message I saw before you pulled the plug.

You didn't go off on me, sorry. I guess since you finally blew at me, after I have been asking *NOT* pestering. The "Get crackin'" wasn't intended to be a pestering, more of a tongue in cheek with evidence I have been collecting. But, as you see it, I was pestering. Okay. No problems.
Where did I blow up at you? And "get crackin" is only the last in a long line of them.

Rants like this... hmm. Okay. I'll have to stop ranting then. I meant no offense. BTW, I didn't mention anyone in particular, so how do you know it was aimed at you?
Pretty obvious, given the chat room.

Yeah, I like the fact that people never bitch and complain about the service they are getting. Or that never pester me about anything. Oh, yeah. I have just started my LLC. Unfortuneately, I have a really big Hardware Budget and now since this last litte incident (the Covad outage) I only have to spend MORE... even before I finally get my hardware I need to actually start offering service.
The only complaints you've ever gotten from me are that you don't charge for what you do. If funding is an issue then let's ask if people would care if we put Google Ads or something on the site.

Yeah. I went over the edge on translating "I don't have time" to "I don't care". Yeah. my bad. So, when will you have time? One other thing I typically like to live by:
Let's not confuse effort, with results.
But I guess, I should abandon it.
Yeah, you did go over the edge (and please drop the sarcasm if you really want this to be civil) with that translation. However, I have responsibilities to my family that have always taken precedence. As far as "results" go, when we put the test server up with the new software there was very little response. My guess is that very few beside you and I really care if the software gets updated or not.

Yes, once again, I need to drop the "Let's not confuse effort, with results." bit. That should make things all better. Yes, it has been two years. Causing a third party to not be able to a help because you don't want them to have access. Kind of the "NIH" syndrome. Sorry, that was uncalled for, I'll retract that last bit about NIH.
No, it's absolutely true. I'm a perfectionist, and I don't care to have someone help when I'm working on something like this. You'll notice that people aren't exactly lining up with their own solutions, though. You should be the last one to be talking about NIH, too.

Talking about flaws, some of the reasons *Z* has been slow are also relating to referral spam using exploits in the Zope 2.3.3 Application engine. Take a look at the last few months of *Z* usage statistics. See those wonderful hosts that all end up being related to two or three porn sites and/or porn hosting companies? I really enjoy paying for the bandwidth they are using. Yes, I guess I should ask for contributions to fund those Porn Sites. Yelling about it at you won't matter anyway, you just tune it out. I have really been trying to be nice and kind and patient. I guess I need to try harder.
WTH are you talking about? This is all news to me. If there's a security or bandwidth issue, then something more than an offhand comment might be nice. I'm busy enough that unless someone plainly says, "this is broken and you need to fix it now", then I'm not going to pay attention. A patch is going to get done a lot faster than a completely brand new application.

True, removing you access does hurt me, but I need to re-evaluate things. Sure you only have user status, no sudo access, only key-auth ssh login. I just need to get things to a set state before anything would have changed. And by the looks of things, its a good thing I did remove sudo access, realting to the next item
Do what you need to do.

Killing Jabberd, yes a bit over the top, but not uncalled for. You still have the MUD. Me not answering e-mail... well I did eventually answer it. I was busy during the time you sent it. Busy doing access clean-up. Its a good thing I did the clean-up. One of the other peoples that had sudo access tried to do some tasks for me, or should I say restore jabberd while I wanted it off. I am replying in Kind. I hope you understand my entire message.
I don't, actually, but whatever floats your boat.

I am telling you right now, that my being unreasonable in your judgement, is fine. Just understand I feel, that yes life is important, I really enjoy chatting and arguing with you (but not this way), about things in general. You are funny witty, interesting and fun to be around. But you telling me that you just don;t have the time... is just not tenable. Two years, while I understand you have Aidan now... maybe things are at a point where we should move to a CMS/forum style of software that is more easily maintained then. More easily for me to spend my time just updating it, regularly, rather than having to depend upon you to fix these things. And No, I am not telling you to goto hell... by saying these things, just that maybe it is about time we switch gears at this point.
Do what you need to do. I suggest you ask the users if they want to use other software first, since this site is and always has been about the user base, and not the software. And then you can start considering message porting costs.

A better tack would be to 1) block the sites involved or 2) actually tell someone what's going on instead of making vague allusions to it. An email or a post would do wonders for communication, especially since I don't spend much time on Jabber at all these days. People can't help if they don't know what's wrong.

Obviously, you are telling me you do not have time, which leads me to believe a dependence on your non-existant time would be a serious problems for us in the near, middle and far future, should anything break or fail completely. once again, this is not a "telling" of things to some, I want no problems.
Uncalled for. Any time something serious has happened I've been there to help fix it.

If the site is becoming an issue for you, then we can talk about taking it elsewhere. Otherwise, if you have issues or needs, tell me outright instead of dancing around them. And asking me when the new software will be done does not constitute telling me outright.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New From Administrivia: See #250367. (new thread)
Created as new thread #253400 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=253400|From Administrivia: See #250367.]
New My judgement is faulty...
...because I blame it all on TopMind for not getting the XBase variant up and running. But then I realize that this comment is probably only funny to me. :-)
New :-)
New I find it hilarious



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New admin and Yendor, I apologize. (SHOULD BEEN NEW THREAD HERE)
I really went over board.

I have some serious crap goings on right now. Serious drain on Time, Money and ovreall sanity.

It is no excuse, but I have restored evreything... except the tomcat users thinger that Mike uses... in my haste I replaced it with default xml file.

For that I also apologize. Everything should be back the way it was before Yesterday ~ 10:50AM

I only locked the users... which effectively removed an pasword authentication. But still allowed Keyauth if you had it setup. All users are unlocked.

Drew, you can check the e-mail now.

Peter, you attempt to login yesterday was denied, but should be fine today
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
Expand Edited by folkert April 26, 2006, 08:12:40 PM EDT
New Glad to see you're back ... from wherever it is you were
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Stepped out of my mind, for a while.
Came back to clarity.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Just glad you're feeling better.
You certainly have a lot of things going on right now. Sheesh. Good luck with everything.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New /me too!
jb4
"Every Republican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
     Due to circumstance beyond my control. - (folkert) - (26)
         I take it someone has been a baaaad boy. -NT - (bepatient) - (20)
             Nope. - (folkert) - (19)
                 You're adjusting it the wrong way. - (admin) - (18)
                     Okay. Let us be civil then. - (folkert) - (17)
                         Mind if I point something out (don't care if I do)? - (bepatient) - (6)
                             Amen, bro! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                             I, too, will be very sad if this place goes away - (imqwerky)
                             And, please let me reiterate: - (jb4)
                             Hey, I'm certainly happy this place is here. - (jake123) - (1)
                                 So let me ask this: - (jb4)
                             Me too and ditto also - (Silverlock)
                         Re: Okay. Let us be civil then. - (admin) - (9)
                             From Administrivia: See #250367. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                             My judgement is faulty... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                 :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                 I find it hilarious -NT - (tuberculosis)
                             admin and Yendor, I apologize. (SHOULD BEEN NEW THREAD HERE) - (folkert) - (4)
                                 Glad to see you're back ... from wherever it is you were -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                                     Stepped out of my mind, for a while. - (folkert)
                                 Just glad you're feeling better. - (admin) - (1)
                                     /me too! -NT - (jb4)
         Oh, for cryin' out loud.... - (n3jja) - (4)
             I was gone for more than a couple of days... - (Nightowl) - (3)
                 Re: is there any way? - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                     even faster - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                         Thanks! - (Nightowl)

It's like dingos mating with elephants: messy loud with lots of snapping and position changes.
193 ms