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New Taxes are probably a bad example.
I think that Todd wants computers to have a built-in toolbox full of tools that let people build things in any way they want to do whatever they like with their own information. Without understanding OOP and Indentation and Dictionaries and Persistence and Scope and Shapes and DLLs and Compilers and Stuff.

A virtual Erector Set or set of fine woodworking + metal working tools in the machine.

Taxes are a bad example because there are lots of laws that determine how the numbers should be crunched. A toolbox approach won't work very well there. But a toolbox approach would work very well for figuring out materials needed to do a room remodeling project or making a recipe collection (has anyone ever done that with a home PC?) or making a jukebox + movie player + ...

"Hey Martha! I just figured out a way to record the Olympics while we're at the Bingo Hall! We can watch our favorite shows any time we want now! You just drag this thingy here, and add this thingy here and IT WORKS!" rather than the KnoppMyth/MythTV approach...

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Depends on what you want an example of
For me, it's a good example of why "applications" work. And while I love the idea of Bob showing Martha that he figured out how to record the Olympics, I think there's only two ways he's going to get that experience:
  1. All the parts to do it are already built, and he is really just assembling them.
  2. Strong AI.
Obviously I think assembling pre-built parts is more likely. It is also the Unix philosophy of small tools that each do one thing, which I agree with. That's not the same thing as "no applications".
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Bingo
I love the idea of Bob showing Martha that he figured out how to record the Olympics, I think there's only two ways he's going to get that experience:

1. All the parts to do it are already built, and he is really just assembling them.


Well duh. WTF do you think Squeak is? Maybe a small number of direct types (numbers, characters), of which are composed a fairly rich set of complex types, all of which are work together using a syntax that's dead simple.

What I object to is shit that doesn't work together because, well, it just doesen't work together.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New You're fighting human nature
Bob figures out how to record the Olympics. He's so proud of himself as he starts to show Martha. Martha says, "I don't care how you made it. What do I have to click?" Most people don't want to make things, they want to use them. If someone else already made something that's pretty close to what they want, they'll use that.

Hell, I'm using KDE right now because the people driving Gnome borked it -- meaning simply that it no longer does what I want it to, and which it used to do. KDE also doesn't do quite what I want it to, but it's closer than Gnome. I could probably get it the last 10% with a few more hours tweaking, but I just don't care that much.

People use Windows because other people have already written programs for that platform that do what they want. (For people buying their first computer, I think you could substitute one of the new distros like Mepis or Ubuntu.) If you told the average user that you had a Brave New System where they're going to have to figure out everything for themselves, they'll take Windows in a heartbeat. They just want to turn it on and use it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Take your last thought a little farther...
They just want to turn it on and use it.


People really want their PC to be their personal computer, to be intuitive and work the way it does in science fiction. They want it to be a general purpose machine as it was promised to be.

Remember the way an 80-year-old approaches a PC or Mac for the first time? CPUs have enough power, and memory is cheap enough now, that it should be possible for PCs to have discoverable interfaces and built-in capabilities to allow a reasonable person to figure out how to make a PC do what they want. It's the legacy of Windows that's holding that capability back.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Evidence runs to the contrary
Most people don't want to make things, they want to use them.


Really? Sure you don't want to take that back? The act of creation if fundamentally rewarding. Everybody likes to make things.

Steve Jobs bet the company on the idea that people generally like to create things (songs, playlists, websites, photo albums, pictures, DVDs, etc). It seem to be paying off - more and more people are buying the things because they like the things they can make with it.

If you were right, people would only turn on the TV and sitin front of it full time (yes some people do this - they generally have no impact on the world and can safely be ignored).




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New you can safely ignore drewk
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=241272|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=241272]
:-)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New You have a much looser definition of "make stuff" than I do
Steve Jobs bet the company on the idea that people generally like to create things (songs, playlists, websites, photo albums, pictures, DVDs, etc). It seem to be paying off - more and more people are buying the things because they like the things they can make with it.
People have been making pictures and photo albums for decades. We've computerized it. Big whoop. Same with DVDs, people have been shooting on VHS and before that on Super 8, also for decades.

Songs? Either you're playing an instrument, you're sampling, or you're writing sheet music and having the computer play it. None of those seem to be new.

Websites? Lots of people are happy with the AOL site creater -- whatever they call it -- at least judging by the number of sites built with it. Apple doesn't seem to have lead that charge.

Playlists? You're kidding, right? You never made a mix tape? So we boosted the capacity and put it in a nice form factor. Great piece of hardware and really well executed, though.

But all of these prove my point, not yours. Each one of these is a tool or application that Apple produced that does one thing very well. No user took a general-purpose device and figured out how to burn DVDs from it.

When I said people don't want to "make stuff", I meant invention of new things. They want to make another iteration of something they've seen before. Most new songs sound like something else you've heard before. Most pictures of the Grand Canyon look just like the same picture everyone else has taken of the Grand Canyon.

If you were right, people would only turn on the TV and sitin front of it full time (yes some people do this - they generally have no impact on the world and can safely be ignored).
Just checking: you do know that's completely wishful thinking, don't you?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Complete Bollocks
And I don't have any more time to argue with someone who lives under a rock.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New You're kidding me, right?
Do you realize exactly how far "no, you have to figure out how to build your own web browser out of these 'parts'" would go with my wife? Hell, she won't even learn how to use a spreadsheet herself, let alone build one.

There will *always* be "applications". Whether or not they work well with each other and have open data formats is what's up for grabs.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New There will always be people too old to learn
my uncle calls me to adjust his digital thermostat for him. What of it?

As for the web browser - its a component (in my environment it is). So?

I'm not arguing against assembling components and calling them "things" (applications if you like)

I'm arguing against making them opaque and indivisible. To me, that's stupid.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New I'll let you tell her she's "too old" to learn
And sit back behind the Lexan shield while she disabuses you.

It's not "too old to learn". It's "couldn't give a rat's arse, that's someone else's job".
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New It's also called respecting someone else's domain
and not expecting everyone to be fascinated by yours.

I'm in agreement with AdminScott.

Just because Todd's a geek, doesn't mean everyone is. Sure, it's nice to be able to modify something to fit yourself perfectly - if it's in a field you care about.

Heck, a lot of people mod their cars to get them perfect for them (coilovers, shocks, exhaust, chipping, turbos, wheels, seat covers, etc), but most people don't care.

My wife wouldn't care about anything Todd is excited about. She's fine never using a computer except for an occasional e-mail. So what? There's much more to life than computers, and she's excellent at her work, much better than I could ever be.

--Tony
Life is too short to worry about perfection
New Point missed again
and I'm gonna make it one more time with no support.

Computers suck. They suck because we build shit called apps rather than systems.

So nothing works with anything.

Which sucks.

You might be happy living with shit that sucks.

I aspire to better.

Sheesh.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New And you're missing the point we're trying to make.
Lots of people would rather deal with "apps" than with "systems", because they sit down to do one thing at a time. Whether those apps deal with each other well is immaterial.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I wouldn't say immaterial
I hear users bitch all the time about the fact that they can't do this with that. One of the reasons MP3 is so popular is because it works with just about everything, despite the fact that it's not that good.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New MP3 is a data format, not an architecture.
Just about everything works with CSV, too. No one here is saying that open data formats are bad.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Not my point
My point is that it's wildly popular because it travels well across different applications.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New I don't give a flip about your point
because its orthogonal to mine.

And besides, you've completely missed the bit about the tangerine.

I'm calling for standardization and you're arguing that everybody is happy dragging a giant duffle bag of wall warts around because we can't agree on a standard for voltage for small devices.

That's your position. Fine whatever. I'm arguing architecture with the first two little pigs.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #244816 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=244816|ICLRPD]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Uh, yeah.
I bow to the "superior intellect", Khan.

It's not orthogonal, because ordinary users DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT ARCHITECTURE.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Expand Edited by admin Feb. 15, 2006, 09:34:11 PM EST
Expand Edited by admin Feb. 15, 2006, 09:35:01 PM EST
New I don't have to bow to nobody!
Until I'm working again, that is. :-/



I just thought of a perfect example of the type of thing I believe Todd would like to see. Taxes and grocery shopping. Huh?

Okay, there are applications -- written for web-enabled refrigerators -- that help you track what food you have on hand, make menus from it, and put together a shopping list for what you'll need. Kind of cool, actually.

There are also applications that help you do your taxes.

What these two things have in common is that both of them deal with expenses. Wouldn't it be cool if the money you spend on your groceries, according to the fridgePod, were automatically debited from your net worth calculation and listed as non-tax expenses? No more duplicated data entry.

Odds are, there are no two such apps that would make this easy for the average user. If they both had the same data model for money, it might be easy to make them work together, so it's a good idea. But if that happens, it's still going to be a programmer doing the integration.

I could give my mother a fridgePod and a copy of TurboTax that are designed with the same currency model, and she would never try to figure out how to make them talk to each other. Unless the installation routine from one app discovered the other and built the connection, hers would remain unconnected.

So yes, small apps with open, standard interfaces are good. Tools that can be easily plugged together are good. Making it easier for developers to create new things is good. But saying it's users who want to plug them together is IMO wishful thinking.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Exactly.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Right on!
When I take photos, I don't care what chip, processor, and language the camera uses - I just want it to work well as a good tool (which is why I have a KM7D - it has the best interface of any digital camera).

When I want to edit and print those photos, I don't care how the program is made; I just want to be able to edit and print with ease (so I use PS7).

I can be very creative making photographs - and Squeak doesn't help my photographic creativity one bit.

--Tony
Of course, the real key to photography is light and composition anyway, not the camera or editor. But it helps to use good tools, and not have to create them myself.
New The ignorance around here is staggering
[link|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2411|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2411]

[link|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3269|http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3269]

And you'd be pissed if every single camera out there used a proprietary image format, wouldn't ya. So you do care at some level about the implementation of your camera.

I will toss out one more little datapoint. Remember Hypercard? It was a dead easy sort of "thing" maker you could use to produce content with a great little language that was a LOT like english. People with no technical skills at all built all kinds of things with it to solve problems of their own.

End user programming remains an unfilled need. Better apps isn't the answer - better components that are easy to stick together to do things is.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Feb. 16, 2006, 01:17:38 AM EST
New We disagree with you, so we're ignorant ... good call
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Something about photos - not capable - links
what did I miss there?




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Something about Photoshop, easy to use, etc
not webcams and filters.

Usefulness to me: zero. Photoshop filters are quite easy to use, and besides PS does so much more that's critical; for example, using magic wand to select areas that I want to apply the filter to.

I'm sure that could be done in Squeak, but I highly doubt it has.

I have no doubt there's a lot of value in Squeak. Heck, I like components a lot; even COM components can add a lot of value (I know COM components can also add a lot of pain).

But Squeak isn't going to replace applications. There's a lot of value in putting together the components to make a polished finished product. After all, it's not that hard to make your own MP3 player using standard components (Circuit Cellar has articles on it), but it is hard to make one with a good user interface like the iPod.

--Tony




New Heck...
I can do all that stuff using ImageMagick from teh sukcy command line. If I were to have to run a squeak VM just to do video / image processing, I'd refrain.

Anything that they were showing can be done in Photoshop, yes even scriptable. But why script with Photoshop when ImageMagick is about a trillion time faster for doing the simple to very complex things Photoshop does. Not to mention re-inventing the wheel for image and video processing in squeak. But each has its points.

It is just a matter of using what you have.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New The arrogance around here is staggering.
Get off your fucking high horse, Todd. No where did I say that components are bad. Yes, scriptable/programmable things are nice... for about 5% of the public. In the end, the user could care less if everything is written in GOTOs and INTERCAL, as long as it does what they want it to do.

And once again, oh-so-enlightened one: DATA FORMAT IS NOT IMPLEMENTATION. It can *drive* it, yes, but you can have completely non-componentized cameras that all use the same image format.

So quit pissing on everyone here because they don't agree with you about user's wants, and stop trying to represent that disagreement as stupidity and ignorance.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Fine - you're all wrong and we'll leave it at that
becuase I can barely cope with the UI complexity of my cell phone - but the teenagers are all over them.

You say users can't deal with complexity and don't care.

I see different.

You can stop replying any time. Cool huh.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New As soon as you stop misrepresenting me I will
I didn't say "can't" and I didn't say they all don't care.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You keep missing the point
First, many people don't care if computers are a turd or a diamond. They're just not important to their lives.

Second, for many people (such as my wife), they're not interested in doing fancy things, they're basically interested in a very simple way of doing the things they want to (e.g. turn on the computer, check e-mail, answer e-mail).

So well designed applications are perfect for them, whether it's a monolithic app designed by megacorp or something put together from components just for them (e.g. by their geeky husband).

The issue of how best to solve problems is another matter. My feeling is that applications are typically the best answer (including web apps), although there's a good cause for making them out of pieces (e.g. typical Unix approach).

--Tony
     Kristen Nygaard and Programmable interfaces - (systems) - (86)
         What about his history is interesting? - (ben_tilly) - (85)
             Re: What about his history is interesting? - (systems) - (84)
                 You would do better to read Alan Kay - (tuberculosis) - (82)
                     Wow. - (Arkadiy) - (81)
                         Did you see HTML on the list? - (ben_tilly) - (79)
                             OK, could you explain? - (Arkadiy) - (78)
                                 I think the point is that they're tools that are pretty easy - (jake123)
                                 Here's an example - (tuberculosis) - (76)
                                     lrpd the whole damn thing -NT - (boxley)
                                     I admire your pattern of use for computers - (Arkadiy) - (15)
                                         Not necessarily so (the "beyond 90%" part). - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                             I've got no Mac (yet?) - (Arkadiy) - (9)
                                                 squeak.org -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                 Python? - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                     I've seen Python and Squeak - (Arkadiy) - (6)
                                                         I'm shocked, sir. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                                             The 10% who understand things like - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                                                                 I've seen that smile - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                     The worst part is, she is righ. - (Arkadiy)
                                                                 DWIM?!? - (jb4) - (1)
                                                                     do what I meant -NT - (boxley)
                                         I don't believe the "crutch" is necessary - (tuberculosis)
                                         disagree, recently sent a example of an application - (boxley) - (2)
                                             A crutch - (Arkadiy)
                                             I need to have me a look at that - (pwhysall)
                                     I'd like that to be true, but don't think it is - (drewk) - (58)
                                         Ive used that treehouse design, didnt think too much of it - (boxley)
                                         You are a prisoner of your assumptions and conditioning - (tuberculosis) - (55)
                                             my point is that people use what they know - (boxley) - (2)
                                                 Yes - exactly - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                     sounds like a fax lnp project to me :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                             There's a central point we seem to differ on - (drewk) - (51)
                                                 Yes, you can only think of one thing at a time - (tuberculosis) - (50)
                                                     If I missed your point, it's because you forgot to make it - (drewk) - (49)
                                                         But the applications *are* the walls - (tuberculosis) - (48)
                                                             They're also inevitable - (drewk) - (47)
                                                                 Necessary for other reasons as well - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                     There's a couple projects aimed at addressing security - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                         Bah, break for lunch and people go and end the discussion -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                             I've made it back to the office - gotta catch up! -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     email has walls? think again - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                         That's what client-side encryption is for -NT - (drewk)
                                                                         As far as most recipients are concerned, it does - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             like windows, its the perception of security that counts -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                 It is more complex than that - (ben_tilly)
                                                                 I was the king of level 1 help desk - (tuberculosis) - (37)
                                                                     Followed a link from the google search - (drewk) - (35)
                                                                         Hey, I had people who didn't know a menu from a window - (tuberculosis) - (34)
                                                                             I don't want to keep reinventing things - (drewk) - (33)
                                                                                 Taxes are probably a bad example. - (Another Scott) - (32)
                                                                                     Depends on what you want an example of - (drewk) - (31)
                                                                                         Bingo - (tuberculosis) - (30)
                                                                                             You're fighting human nature - (drewk) - (29)
                                                                                                 Take your last thought a little farther... - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                 Evidence runs to the contrary - (tuberculosis) - (27)
                                                                                                     you can safely ignore drewk - (boxley)
                                                                                                     You have a much looser definition of "make stuff" than I do - (drewk) - (25)
                                                                                                         Complete Bollocks - (tuberculosis) - (24)
                                                                                                             You're kidding me, right? - (admin) - (23)
                                                                                                                 There will always be people too old to learn - (tuberculosis) - (22)
                                                                                                                     I'll let you tell her she's "too old" to learn - (admin) - (21)
                                                                                                                         It's also called respecting someone else's domain - (tonytib) - (20)
                                                                                                                             Point missed again - (tuberculosis) - (19)
                                                                                                                                 And you're missing the point we're trying to make. - (admin) - (17)
                                                                                                                                     I wouldn't say immaterial - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         MP3 is a data format, not an architecture. - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             Not my point - (jake123)
                                                                                                                                     I don't give a flip about your point - (tuberculosis) - (13)
                                                                                                                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                         Uh, yeah. - (admin) - (11)
                                                                                                                                             I don't have to bow to nobody! - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Exactly. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                                             Right on! - (tonytib) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                 The ignorance around here is staggering - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                     We disagree with you, so we're ignorant ... good call -NT - (drewk) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                         Something about photos - not capable - links - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                             Something about Photoshop, easy to use, etc - (tonytib) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Heck... - (folkert)
                                                                                                                                                     The arrogance around here is staggering. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                         Fine - you're all wrong and we'll leave it at that - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             As soon as you stop misrepresenting me I will - (admin)
                                                                                                                                 You keep missing the point - (tonytib)
                                                                     ICLRPD (new thread) - (lincoln)
                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (jb4)
                         The idea is that these are tools for adhoc computing - (tuberculosis)
                 The short history.... - (ChrisR)

Our Internal Subterfuge is up 80%! Good Job, way to go!
315 ms