Why people get pissed off at you:

Post #241,054 by admin 1/11/06 7:27:44 PM Reply	Why people get pissed off at you: What you sounded like: "That's not what I need. I was very specific, and you obviously didn't understand me. Don't try to help me unless you understand what you're doing." What it should have been: "No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Here's how it's different from what you proposed." Or: [no response] YOU are the one asking for help. The burden is on YOU to sort through the answers. Don't lambaste people for "wasting" your time with answers. Telling someone not to bother trying to help in such a snarky way (yes, it's snarky, no matter how much you felt you were being polite) sounds arrogant, and it's a good way to get people to avoid answering you at all. Of the people on this forum, Ben, you are probably the worst when it comes to completely inappropriate social responses without understanding WHY they are inappropriate. I'm not trying to slam you; just trying to point out something that I'm not sure you're aware of -- it's the kind of problem that causes itself to be invisible to the person with the problem, unfortunately. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #241,075 by ben_tilly 1/11/06 10:10:38 PM Reply	Try to word my ideal response Try to come up with a way to say, "Here is how this is different from what I was asking for" without repeating pretty much exactly what I wrote in the original post, or had already written in more detail to Bill. And without providing grounds for offense. People saying, "This isn't what you should have done" won't help as much as a concrete example of what I should have done. Given a clearly non-working example and a working example I have a chance of figuring out what improvement looks like. Otherwise all that I'm really getting out of everyone's feedback is, You suck - which doesn't really help me much. As for the option of not responding, here is why I didn't do that. If I think that I or someone else has answered a question, unless that person says that the question really hasn't been answered, that thread is done. In other words an unanswered wrong solution can kill the possibility of getting a right solution. So if you're saying that I should just ignore non-solutions, then what I'm hearing is that I shouldn't bother trying to actually get an answer. As for not knowing when my social responses are inappropriate, I know very well that I am lacking in that area. I even know why I lack in that. In fact it is exactly that knowledge that makes me push this point so that I can try to get some feedback on how to improve in a form that I can use. Some day I might explain it to you, but that won't happen in a public forum. Or even a semi-public forum like the beepbash or jabber. Believe it or not, I am a lot better than I once was. And I'd like to be better still. I'm resigned to the fact that it can never be as natural for me as it is for others, but improvement is always a good thing. Sincerely, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,085 by admin 1/11/06 10:40:20 PM Reply	I did... What it should have been: "No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Here's how it's different from what you proposed." If you have to repeat yourself, so be it. You're the one asking for help. If you have to do more work to elicit the help, even if it seems unnecessary to you, then do so. Anything else seems like you don't appreciate the help that is being offered. And you should appreciate it, even if it is wrong. Someone took their time to think about your problem and offer a solution. You owe them the effort to work through their response with them. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #241,094 by ben_tilly 1/11/06 11:27:59 PM Reply	Not quite You outlined the response that you think would work, but didn't write out the full post that you think I should have written. The problem is that I look at that outline and strongly suspect that if I had taken that and filled in the explanation that I am supposed to insert, the result would have wound up offending. Or if I did not offend, it would have been by luck, not skill. In fact that outline looks a lot like one of the responses to Drew that I threw away because I thought it would be offensive! Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic here, but I managed to offend when I was trying not to. And, even knowing that I offended, it was not immediately clear to me why it was offensive to someone else. Given the discussion so far, I think I could now write the response in a way that wouldn't offend. But it isn't easy and it isn't natural. What you've done is like giving a non-programmer a brief description of how a program should go and telling them, "Hey, you just write it like this and you'll be fine!" Even though it is obvious to you how to finish, the odds that you're going to get a working program out of that person are somewhere between zero and zip. OK, it isn't really that bad. I am hopefully more competent at social matters than most non-programmers are at programming. But I clearly remember when it would have been that bad... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,307 by drewk 1/13/06 9:58:28 PM Reply	Been meaning to ask If you were to offer that explanation, would it include the word "mothership"? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #241,316 by ben_tilly 1/13/06 10:55:17 PM Reply	WTF is that supposed to mean? I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,318 by drewk 1/13/06 11:09:02 PM Reply	Lighten up, Francis[1] In a relatively public forum, you admit to having to study social responses. Ever since, I've been trying to decide if I should make a [link\|http://imdb.com/title/tt0088172/\|Starman] or [link\|http://imdb.com/title/tt0115082/\|Third Rock] reference. [1] And that was a [link\|http://imdb.com/title/tt0083131/\|Stripes] reference. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #241,322 by ben_tilly 1/14/06 1:08:29 AM Reply	None of which I have seen For the record, I've had people clearly try to insult me with mothership comments. Hence my reaction. Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,323 by drewk 1/14/06 1:12:29 AM Reply	You've never seen any of them? Man, what planet are you from. Sorry man, I couldn't resist. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #241,324 by ben_tilly 1/14/06 1:25:13 AM Reply	I don't watch TV, remember? I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,325 by drewk 1/14/06 2:05:10 AM Reply	Two were movies, and yes I remember Like I said, I couldn't resist that setup. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #241,327 by ben_tilly 1/14/06 2:56:42 AM Reply	Well next time please do Whether or not you realized it, you really hurt my feelings. And I strongly doubt that you would have done so if you knew how I would react. Sincerely, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #241,334 by boxley 1/14/06 9:22:57 AM Reply	Ben, you and I both had somewhat eclectic upbringings your path was was much different than mine but both of us are far enough out of the mainstream to possibly understand the angst of the protagonist of "stranger in a strange land" so when we meet the folks surrounding us that make alien, mothership references be comforted that they are in the mainstream, and the poor bastards dont even know it and pity them. peace, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #241,337 by drewk 1/14/06 10:58:09 AM Reply	Didn't mean to Yes, I was poking a little fun, but didn't intend for it to hurt. I'm sorry. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #241,328 by cforde 1/14/06 3:13:52 AM Reply	maybe the same planet I'm from 'cause I don't know what you're talking about either. You know, pop culture isn't as popular as it once was. There's a whole lot more variety and so the demographics get finer (smaller). The amount of commonly shared culture is shrinking. Even as the north american entertainment products spread 'round the world. Just 'cause millions of people have seen something, millions more haven't & won't. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #241,319 by admin 1/14/06 12:04:34 AM Reply	Nanu, nanu! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #241,339 by Yendor 1/14/06 11:21:31 AM Reply	Shazbot! -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #241,321 by broomberg 1/14/06 1:00:14 AM Reply	Jesus wept Agreed. Lighten up. Drook's a buddy.

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