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New Ironic
To quote the same document that you are throwing at me, [link|http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#id266392|I wasn't being rude.] Besides there is a two-way burden in a technical discussion. From the same document, for people answering questions, [link|http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#id266392|If you don't know for sure, say so!] Knowing for sure includes reading the whole question and being sure that you understand it.

As to your response, you showed, again, your failure to understand what I was asking for. It isn't that one of my requirements is non-negotiable. It is that you answered the completely wrong question! What you are thinking of as a "non-negotiable requirement" is actually my question. The whole question. And nothing but the question. Addressing any other problem, actual or perceived, does not help me. It actually hurts me by causing me to have to pursue dead ends just to prove to myself that you did misunderstand me.

It is too bad that I offended you by trying to politely point out that I have a very precise question and I am not interested in answers to other questions on somewhat related matters. I don't know what response would have not offended yet kept you from volunteering more answers to wrong questions. I tried to accomplish both goals.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New No reply would have been better than #240993. IMHO.
New Can you explain why?
Drew obviously isn't the only person who sees offence where none was intended. But when I read it and re-read it, I simply don't see how it causes offence.

Certainly I wouldn't be offended by a response like that. I would take it as it was intended. As someone who had been misread once trying to head off further rounds of being misunderstood.

Would it have been better if I had responded, "You obviously didn't understand my question"? That was my initial reaction after I wasted time googling the project and verifying that it was solving a different problem. (Which I definitely did not want to do.)

But then I figured that that response would lead to a couple of rounds of clarification until he realized that he had not, in fact, understand my question. And I didn't want to go through rounds of clarification either.

So I tried to make it as clear as possible that , and instead have had to go through rounds of people being pissed off and offended at my response. :-(

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Clarification
Don't worry about my feelings, they're not hurt. I've had people try to offend me and it didn't work.

I'll say this, though: Both Bill and I read your inital post and came up with a simiar idea. Maybe your initial description wasn't as clear to us as it was to you.

Re-reading your original, I see why my idea doesn't get you what you want. But it took three readings and a bit of thought to see why. The key line was, "The two options that I know about are either having 2 different X displays (so each can cycle through a different set of virtual desktops) ..." If I had two X sessions, one on the local box one an X-term, I would have called that "two views of the same desktop". It didn't occur to me that you would actually want to see the same document or app open on two monitors at the same time.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Can you tell me how...
I could have written the original question in a way that would have been understood?

I knew when I wrote it that it would sound very similar to many things that I didn't want. And I tried very hard to make it clear.

And yes, I actually said (So I could, if I wished, have both monitors showing me the same virtual desktop.) That implied to me that I would see the exact same applications on both of them.

As for Bill, his idea was much closer to what I asked for. He got the fact that it had to be possible for the same thing to be on both monitors. I felt that he just hadn't quite thought it through enough, and in his response he made it clear that he hadn't thought it through enough, and that he realized that for himself after posting.

In other words he knew what I was asking and thought he had a solution, but didn't. Which is very different than not figuring out what I was asking for.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I think this is clearer.
[link|http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-list/2004-July/msg00035.html|Gnome-list]:

I'm trying to be able to view different virtual desktops on different monitors. For example, if Metacity has four virtual desktops and I have two monitors, it would be nice if I could control those monitors to view any two virtual desktops.


It took him a couple of attempts to put it that succinctly though. ;-)

[edit:] Formatting...

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Jan. 11, 2006, 10:13:41 PM EST
New Yes, that is clearer
I am not surprised that it took him a while to find a succinct way to put it. I spent a surprising amount of time trying to make my initial question clear, and obviously didn't succeed.

I guess one take-away is that a concrete example is always good when attempting to clarify things.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New It's an "instance" problem
If you and I are both running "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5" we are both running the "same application". But we are running two different instances of two different installations on two different systems. If I were logged in twice to the same machine in different X sessions, I would be running two different instances if the same installation of the "same application".

So unfortunately, saying that you're viewing "the same applications on two screens" isn't unambiguous. And no, I can't tell you how to say it unambiguously and concisely.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Why people get pissed off at you:
What you sounded like: "That's not what I need. I was very specific, and you obviously didn't understand me. Don't try to help me unless you understand what you're doing."

What it should have been: "No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Here's how it's different from what you proposed."

Or: [no response]

YOU are the one asking for help. The burden is on YOU to sort through the answers. Don't lambaste people for "wasting" your time with answers.

Telling someone not to bother trying to help in such a snarky way (yes, it's snarky, no matter how much you felt you were being polite) sounds arrogant, and it's a good way to get people to avoid answering you at all.

Of the people on this forum, Ben, you are probably the worst when it comes to completely inappropriate social responses without understanding WHY they are inappropriate. I'm not trying to slam you; just trying to point out something that I'm not sure you're aware of -- it's the kind of problem that causes itself to be invisible to the person with the problem, unfortunately.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Try to word my ideal response
Try to come up with a way to say, "Here is how this is different from what I was asking for" without repeating pretty much exactly what I wrote in the original post, or had already written in more detail to Bill. And without providing grounds for offense.

People saying, "This isn't what you should have done" won't help as much as a concrete example of what I should have done. Given a clearly non-working example and a working example I have a chance of figuring out what improvement looks like. Otherwise all that I'm really getting out of everyone's feedback is, You suck - which doesn't really help me much.

As for the option of not responding, here is why I didn't do that. If I think that I or someone else has answered a question, unless that person says that the question really hasn't been answered, that thread is done. In other words an unanswered wrong solution can kill the possibility of getting a right solution. So if you're saying that I should just ignore non-solutions, then what I'm hearing is that I shouldn't bother trying to actually get an answer.

As for not knowing when my social responses are inappropriate, I know very well that I am lacking in that area. I even know why I lack in that. In fact it is exactly that knowledge that makes me push this point so that I can try to get some feedback on how to improve in a form that I can use. Some day I might explain it to you, but that won't happen in a public forum. Or even a semi-public forum like the beepbash or jabber.

Believe it or not, I am a lot better than I once was. And I'd like to be better still. I'm resigned to the fact that it can never be as natural for me as it is for others, but improvement is always a good thing.

Sincerely,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I did...
What it should have been: "No, that's not quite what I'm looking for. Here's how it's different from what you proposed."


If you have to repeat yourself, so be it. You're the one asking for help. If you have to do more work to elicit the help, even if it seems unnecessary to you, then do so. Anything else seems like you don't appreciate the help that is being offered. And you should appreciate it, even if it is wrong. Someone took their time to think about your problem and offer a solution. You owe them the effort to work through their response with them.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Not quite
You outlined the response that you think would work, but didn't write out the full post that you think I should have written.

The problem is that I look at that outline and strongly suspect that if I had taken that and filled in the explanation that I am supposed to insert, the result would have wound up offending. Or if I did not offend, it would have been by luck, not skill. In fact that outline looks a lot like one of the responses to Drew that I threw away because I thought it would be offensive!

Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic here, but I managed to offend when I was trying not to. And, even knowing that I offended, it was not immediately clear to me why it was offensive to someone else. Given the discussion so far, I think I could now write the response in a way that wouldn't offend. But it isn't easy and it isn't natural.

What you've done is like giving a non-programmer a brief description of how a program should go and telling them, "Hey, you just write it like this and you'll be fine!" Even though it is obvious to you how to finish, the odds that you're going to get a working program out of that person are somewhere between zero and zip.

OK, it isn't really that bad. I am hopefully more competent at social matters than most non-programmers are at programming. But I clearly remember when it would have been that bad...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Been meaning to ask
If you were to offer that explanation, would it include the word "mothership"?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New WTF is that supposed to mean?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Lighten up, Francis[1]
In a relatively public forum, you admit to having to study social responses. Ever since, I've been trying to decide if I should make a [link|http://imdb.com/title/tt0088172/|Starman] or [link|http://imdb.com/title/tt0115082/|Third Rock] reference.




[1] And that was a [link|http://imdb.com/title/tt0083131/|Stripes] reference.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New None of which I have seen
For the record, I've had people clearly try to insult me with mothership comments. Hence my reaction.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New You've never seen *any* of them?
Man, what planet are you from.
















Sorry man, I couldn't resist.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I don't watch TV, remember?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Two were movies, and yes I remember
Like I said, I couldn't resist that setup.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Well next time please do
Whether or not you realized it, you really hurt my feelings. And I strongly doubt that you would have done so if you knew how I would react.

Sincerely,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ben, you and I both had somewhat eclectic upbringings
your path was was much different than mine but both of us are far enough out of the mainstream to possibly understand the angst of the protagonist of "stranger in a strange land" so when we meet the folks surrounding us that make alien, mothership references be comforted that they are in the mainstream, and the poor bastards dont even know it and pity them.
peace,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Didn't mean to
Yes, I was poking a little fun, but didn't intend for it to hurt. I'm sorry.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New maybe the same planet I'm from 'cause
I don't know what you're talking about either.
You know, pop culture isn't as popular as it once was. There's a whole lot more variety and so the demographics get finer (smaller). The amount of commonly shared culture is shrinking. Even as the north american entertainment products spread 'round the world. Just 'cause millions of people have seen something, millions more haven't & won't.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
New Nanu, nanu!
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Shazbot!
-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
New Jesus wept
Agreed.
Lighten up.
Drook's a buddy.
New My $0.02.
All of your reply was fine except for:

If it is unclear, ask questions and I'll try to clarify. But please don't try to offer solutions without understanding exactly what I am asking for...


It's very easy to take that as condescending, even if you don't intend it to be. It's impolite to be annoyed at someone who is trying to help. I was very surprised that you wrote it that way - it's unlike you.

On seeing your closing "Cheers" I see that you weren't intending it to be so, but I hope you see why people might take it that way.

Think back to Brenda's conflicts with her SIL about her [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=226046|writing style]. There's a fine line between being condescending and attempting to offer helpful advice to someone who is trying to help.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Thanks, that helps
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Dual desktops, to same set of virtual desktops? - (ben_tilly) - (47)
         I haven't found anything. - (folkert) - (35)
             Thanks for trying - (ben_tilly) - (31)
                 Brute-force method - (drewk) - (30)
                     That solves the wrong problem - (ben_tilly) - (29)
                         Punt - (drewk) - (28)
                             Ironic - (ben_tilly) - (27)
                                 No reply would have been better than #240993. IMHO. -NT - (Another Scott) - (26)
                                     Can you explain why? - (ben_tilly) - (25)
                                         Clarification - (drewk) - (4)
                                             Can you tell me how... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                 I think this is clearer. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Yes, that is clearer - (ben_tilly)
                                                 It's an "instance" problem - (drewk)
                                         Why people get pissed off at you: - (admin) - (17)
                                             Try to word my ideal response - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                                 I did... - (admin) - (1)
                                                     Not quite - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Been meaning to ask - (drewk) - (13)
                                                     WTF is that supposed to mean? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                                                         Lighten up, Francis[1] - (drewk) - (8)
                                                             None of which I have seen - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                                 You've never seen *any* of them? - (drewk) - (6)
                                                                     I don't watch TV, remember? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                         Two were movies, and yes I remember - (drewk) - (3)
                                                                             Well next time please do - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                 Ben, you and I both had somewhat eclectic upbringings - (boxley)
                                                                                 Didn't mean to - (drewk)
                                                                     maybe the same planet I'm from 'cause - (cforde)
                                                         Nanu, nanu! -NT - (admin) - (1)
                                                             Shazbot! -NT - (Yendor)
                                                         Jesus wept - (broomberg)
                                         My $0.02. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                             Thanks, that helps -NT - (ben_tilly)
             What about VNC? - (bepatient) - (2)
                 How could that possibly work? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     nope, you're correct - (bepatient)
         Maybe Xfce 4.2? - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Thanks, that *does* look promising..or not - (ben_tilly)
         s/linux/osx/g I know, solving wrong problem :-) -NT - (boxley) - (8)
             You can't do what I want with OS X, either. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                 perhaps you are right but from your description - (boxley) - (6)
                     Read the description again - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         Can you simulate what you want? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             It is closer to... - (ben_tilly)
                         From what I'm reading.... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                             That part of it is very doable - (ben_tilly)
                             An alternate approach (new thread) - (ben_tilly)

No, you didn't. You came here for an argument!
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