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New On its face
the majority of your point revolved around limiting the amount of configuration to the bare minimum allowable to acheive the "desired" funtionality.

There are several reasons why this is (IMO and others) simply incorrect.

One, you can have configurability allowed even after providing the "sane" default and, in fact, advanced users demand this. And whether you care to admit it or not, at some point you are going to have to deal with advanced users. Simple math, there are a finite set of newbies..and over time those newbies will become advanced users.

Hell, there are even advanced users that use Windows ;-)

However, I'll link to a web posting by [link|http://www.useit.com/alertbox/scottbutler.html|Scott Butler from Rockwell Software] which is actually linked from [link|http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9705a.html|The Difference Between Web Design and GUI Design] which is found on [link|http://www.useit.com/jakob/|Jakob Nielsen's website]. All of these guys know just a little bit about HCI and interface design.

The most telling section I will quote

They say, "The web is different because it's used for so many different tasks. It's not like Excel where we know what people are going to use it for: budgets, graphs, etc.."

IMHO: It's not different than Excel because we don't even know what people are going to use Excel for. Some EE friends of mine used to use Excel to track intermediate values in self-adjusting algorithms. They picked Excel because it was the best tool they had for the job and it was really easy to use. I doubt that Microsoft included this use case in their usability testing, but it was still easy to use. I'm sure that my friends' mindset for this task was significantly different than it would be if they were using Excel to make a budget, but they were able to use the tool effectively. Point being, principles of good design seem to be pretty robust.


Its a fairly fine point but you must read through it. It is FOLLY for a design team to think that they can design for all contingencies and for all users. Because of this, the best applications are highly configurable.

Add insult to injury, this discussion (and most of your points) are really focussed on application interfaces (as the above example regarding excel). Designing the primary interface to the computer is COMPLETELY different..as it involved not only configuration at the application level (tree views in Nautilus for example) as well as coniguration at the macro level on how the person interacts with the machine. And the number of personal experiences in the latter case equals the number of computer users...which means that regardless of the amount of user testing you do, you will never have tested a "significant sample size" to determine if you have it right.

With this said, I will again point to Warp, which probably had the most amount of HCI research done >pre-launch< (granted it is old now, and compared to some current offerings may seem limited...but there are still configurations that were possible on Warp that cannot be accomplished through desktop option screens of any other OS). The reason I use this as the example is because it (though you may have never used it) proves both your point and ours. Sane defaults are critical and Warp had them set at the "99%" user level. A beginning user wouldn't have to change a thing post install to accomplish common tasks simply and effectively. Secondly, accessing the configuration for ALL desktop items used the exact same initial options. Program, file, spreadsheet etc...all were common objects and the rgt-click menus were identical. So this critical aspect was consistency. And finally, further in those options was the ability to configure aspects of the interface to the utmost detail, allowing the interface to become personal.

There are folks here that have continued to use Warp far beyond its useful life and I'm convinced that it is because of this last point. They, by now, have Warp doing things that probably can't be configured into other interfaces..and if your theory holds, should not be allowed.

Thats a long enough post for now. I have to go check the bird.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I use Excel daily.
It's not all that configurable; most of it is frippery - colours, recalc, circular things, do your dates start from 1900 or 1904 (no, seriously, you can choose that) and because of MS's insistence on being backward compatible with both Excel and 1-2-3, there's a number of options to do with that. None of which are of much substance, taken in isolation.

Excel is inherently flexible.

Out of the box, and with no configuration whatsoever, it can be used for complex financial analysis, arbitrary data-shuffling, or balancing your chequebook.

ObExcelRant: Why bother configuring how the fuck many files are on the MRU? Why can I only have a maximum of 9? Why can't I have that list go as far down the screen as the menu will reach? What if I'm using more than 9 files and want to keep track of them? Cheers, Microsoft. I now get to use the utterly fucked up "history" option (in Windows) or the "fuck you, it doesn't exist" option (in OS X).

I had high hopes of this being fixed in the generally superior Mac version, but it's not.

And another thing, while I'm ranting about Office. Word's crap, right? Graphics handling, numbering, fields, all utter shite. However. Instead of fixing that, Microsoft decided that what we need is Sparkle Text. What the FUCK is that about?

And don't even get me started about Access.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New And why can't you do sparkle text *and* marching ants?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That could mean Excel is a flawed example.
More likely, it points out how 'configuration' (e.g. a cell's number format) has migrated towards 'functionality'.

I have a simpler example. I develop and maintain a trouble-ticket system. Like most systems, tickets are able to be put into different categories for action by different groups of people. Is the job of adding new categories configuration? In a way, yes. But not really: most people who use it are unaware that adding or renaming a category is dead simple - there's actually a screen just for that. It might look like configuration, sure, but it's functionality.

Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
New Number *format*.
That's part of the document. Not configuration.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New you poor bastard
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Thanks for that link. Nostalgia!
Butler's post reminds me of Infoworld's [link|http://static.userland.com/userLandDiscussArchive/msg008043.html|Inclusion software forums]. I remember the text being hard-coded in a font that was nearly invisible with a 1600x1200 desktop. I'll bet they thought they used sane defaults. ;-D

In searching around, I came across [link|http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-01-09-008-26-OP-SW|this] LinuxToday story that was a pointer to Chad Dickerson's IW article about open source and outsourcing their antispam efforts. It sounded, based on the responses at LT (the feedback area at IW is either gone or very well hidden), that the thinking at IW hadn't changed much. :-/ I see that Chad [link|http://weblog.infoworld.com/dickerson/|left] and now works for Yahoo Search.

</nostalgia>

Ah, [link|http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Humor/SNL/DeliciousDish1.htm|good times].

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: On its face

One, you can have configurability allowed even after providing the "sane" default and, in fact, advanced users demand this.

\r\n\r\n

They can demand all they like, but adding configurability to an application means adding interface, adding complexity and adding new behavior interactions. As the third impacts mostly on the application's developers (who must determine and test the possible interactions for QA purposes) I'll pass it over, but the first two certainly impact usability one way or another for various groups of users. The second one in particular is important to look at in detail, because while some users won't have trouble with a more complex interface, many users probably will. And if the interface change is being implemented solely at the behest of a small group of users, then it appears to generally be a net loss for usability. Which means it shouldn't be implemented; while not by any means an ironclad rule, that sort of utilitarian calculus makes for a handy rough guideline in usability decision-making.

\r\n\r\n

Furthermore, you seem to have assumed the truth of this implication: if a given user is an advanced user, then that user will desire additional configuration options. Universally quantified as it is, however, that implication is trivially easy to disprove.

\r\n\r\n

And whether you care to admit it or not, at some point you are going to have to deal with advanced users. Simple math, there are a finite set of newbies..and over time those newbies will become advanced users.

\r\n\r\n

Not every new user becomes an advanced user with time; most users, even those who receive thorough training and documentation for an application, only ever learn as much of the application as they need to for their daily interactions with it.

\r\n\r\n

Its a fairly fine point but you must read through it. It is FOLLY for a design team to think that they can design for all contingencies and for all users. Because of this, the best applications are highly configurable.

\r\n\r\n

A simple logical extension of that argument would conclude that it is folly for a design team to think that they can anticipate all aspects of an application which users might wish to configure, and thus that even highly configurable applications would fall short of being defined as "the best" (where "the best" is a dangerously vague term -- the best at what exactly?). At any rate, the impossibility of pleasing all of the people all of the time was solidly confirmed long before the advent of programmable computers. But as I have never once stated that a design team should attempt to design for all contingencies and/or all users, or to think that it can, I suspect you're replying to an opponent made from the dried stalks of cereal plants.

\r\n\r\n

And the number of personal experiences in the latter case equals the number of computer users...which means that regardless of the amount of user testing you do, you will never have tested a "significant sample size" to determine if you have it right.

\r\n\r\n

There are two erroneous assumptions apparent in your statement here:

\r\n\r\n
    \r\n
  1. You continue to rely on an assumption that all users must be pleased all of the time. I've already pointed out that this is an impossibility no matter the number of configuration options offered, so we must return to the utilitarian calculus: what is the largest portion of users that can be satisfied for the largest portion of time? Answering this question generally leads to the exclusion of (what you assert to be) the demands of so-called "advanced users", as the complexity such users are willing to accept from interfaces is generally beyond that which so-called "average users" will accept.
  2. \r\n
  3. You assume that user testing is the only means by which developers can determine whether they "have it right". In actual fact, developers have access to information from a variety of other channels besides user testing, and good usability processes take advantage of as many of these channels as possible.
  4. \r\n
\r\n\r\n

There are folks here that have continued to use Warp far beyond its useful life and I'm convinced that it is because of this last point. They, by now, have Warp doing things that probably can't be configured into other interfaces..and if your theory holds, should not be allowed.

\r\n\r\n

Again, two problems leap off the screen:

\r\n\r\n
    \r\n
  1. If configurability to the "utmost detail" truly does result in significant usability gains, then Warp would not be a museum piece.
  2. \r\n
  3. You seem to conflate, as Peter pointed out, "flexibility" with "configurability". Flexible interfaces need not necessarily be configurable, and configurable interfaces are not necessarily flexible.
  4. \r\n
--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Quick question for you
Do you believe that OS 2 lost because it was worse (ie less useable) than the competition (Windows)?

If so, then you're going to have another argument on your hand shortly...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I do not believe

that any one factor ever is the sole cause of an interface's success or failure; the real world is never that simple.

\r\n\r\n

But if the level of configurability in OS/2 Warp truly had a significant impact on usability, then one would expect something more to have come out of it, even if only in a legacy of ideas living on in other systems. As it is, the ideas which are being extolled here are not the ideas from OS/2 Warp which actually did live on.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Before anyone else responds to this ...
Please branch it. You are now starting the "other argument" Ben mentioned.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Too Late, Drook.
Have you ever used OS/2? Do you know anything about it's usability features? From your post, it's clear that the answer is no, and no.

In short, you are a big fan of arguing from ignorance.

Having used Warp, Windows, Linux and Mac in order of degree of use over the last ten years, I think I can say I'm not arguing from ignorance. Warp was a bitch to install, but after that was far and away the best system for actual use, and arguably still is, or would be if there was more software for it. Warp was done in by a few things, not least of which was the OEM's desire for a sole supplier so that they could hand over the keys to someone else.

Why don't you go buy a copy of eComStation from Mensys? Tell Roderick I sent ya. It'll cost you a few hundred bucks, but after that it'll be very cheap over the long haul; the state of unix ports on OS/2 is far advanced to the same situation on Windows, and interestingly enough it's all maintained by a tiny fraction of the development community. You've got your web suite (moz, firefox, thunderbird), OpenOffice (new version coming out very soon), various dev tools, and of course REXX. You also get what is arguably the best and easiest to learn UI ever created for computers. It's not an attempt to be "intuitive", instead it's an attempt to be "consistent" everywhere, so that once you learn how the basic thing works, you are off to the races for anything you try to do.

The right click pop up menu came from OS/2. 'nuff said.... and I won't be saying anything more on the matter. However, I will say that you should really think twice before offering a conclusion on something upon which you have just readily admitted you know nothing.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Ya gotta admit, it /is/ arse-ugly, though.
/me flees after chucking the hand-grenade.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Ya looking in the mirror again? ;-)
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New I see many things in the mirror. OS/2 isn't one of them.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New And *I'm* the one that gets accused of fishing for LRPDs
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That's because it isn't behind you
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ya gotta look at a version that's was released in this
century sometime, Peter.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Re: Ya gotta look at a version that's was released in this
I [link|http://www.ecomstation.com/gallery/index.php?g=eComStation_1.2/user_submitted_screenshots|did].


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Wow. 4 out of the 6 are very nice looking.
Those 4 look everybit as nice as KDE or GNOME does. One even surpasses them in subtle touches.

Really, truly, there is no difference in the "look" of the Linux Desktop and the OS/2 eComStation. I am thinking there is an "OMG-Lookey-What-I-Can-Do" amount of options in configs... the last time I really used OS/2 was ONLY in commandline mode for controlling a tape-robot, a couple of tape storage Cabinets, and a gaggle of Tape Drives.

I rather liked being able to just use it.

The other two that were setup in "gaudy" mode, sure we can get there in Linux. Just try "twm" on for size.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New I take it your wife chooses the decor in your house.
You'd go blind, otherwise...


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Jack, it' like trying to teach a pig to sing.
New you've heard him, he cant sing :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
     Let's try it again then. - (ubernostrum) - (48)
         I don't think anyone disagrees with that. - (Another Scott) - (4)
             Re: I don't think anyone disagrees with that. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                 Sensible people don't want redundant configuration options. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                     Seriously. - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                         Balkanization -NT - (drewk)
         Fine - (broomberg) - (42)
             Re: Fine - (ubernostrum) - (40)
                 Simple example - (broomberg) - (16)
                     Re: Simple example - (altmann) - (1)
                         Hey - (broomberg)
                     No. - (ubernostrum) - (13)
                         Batch process. Automation. Piss off. -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                             It's probably a database permissions problem. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Now that twitch in my left eye is back -NT - (drewk)
                         mickeysoft berk - (boxley)
                         You've made it plain - (broomberg) - (8)
                             You've made it plain - (ubernostrum) - (7)
                                 Reality check - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     The statement that highlights the fundamental disconnect - (bepatient) - (5)
                                         Devil's advocate mode - (broomberg) - (4)
                                             You CAN always leave means to override the default behaviour - (hnick) - (3)
                                                 No, it can be very complicated - (tonytib) - (2)
                                                     That's true. - (hnick) - (1)
                                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (drewk)
                 On its face - (bepatient) - (22)
                     I use Excel daily. - (pwhysall) - (4)
                         And why can't you do sparkle text *and* marching ants? -NT - (drewk)
                         That could mean Excel is a flawed example. - (static) - (1)
                             Number *format*. - (pwhysall)
                         you poor bastard -NT - (boxley)
                     Thanks for that link. Nostalgia! - (Another Scott)
                     Re: On its face - (ubernostrum) - (15)
                         Quick question for you - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                             I do not believe - (ubernostrum) - (13)
                                 Before anyone else responds to this ... - (drewk)
                                 Too Late, Drook. - (jake123) - (11)
                                     Ya gotta admit, it /is/ arse-ugly, though. - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                         Ya looking in the mirror again? ;-) -NT - (jbrabeck) - (3)
                                             I see many things in the mirror. OS/2 isn't one of them. -NT - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 And *I'm* the one that gets accused of fishing for LRPDs -NT - (drewk)
                                                 That's because it isn't behind you -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                         Ya gotta look at a version that's was released in this - (jake123) - (5)
                                             Re: Ya gotta look at a version that's was released in this - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 Wow. 4 out of the 6 are very nice looking. - (folkert) - (1)
                                                     I take it your wife chooses the decor in your house. - (pwhysall)
                                             Jack, it' like trying to teach a pig to sing. -NT - (n3jja) - (1)
                                                 you've heard him, he cant sing :-) -NT - (boxley)
             Thanks, Barry, now I don't have to write that same post -NT - (drewk)

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