Post #235,498
11/22/05 9:06:33 AM
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Nits
But don't go to a project whose aim is a simple, usable desktop for a broad userbase Point I made before, define your userbase. For Linux, that userbase is a fairly well educated and fairly technical bunch. And possibly, the alienation of the userbase may have come from a change in project goals...which will generally make enemies of the current userbase if they feel like the changes aren't necessary/warranted (which brings you back to the curse of having smart people as users) I understand the feature creep issue. However, we're back to an understanding of the usersbase, which for Linux (be definition) is a broader group that those used to a "click to focus" model. And again, I understand your overall point, but this was not a really good example to prove it. That's how most "geeks" perceive it, unfortunately, but it's very sad that they do because it implies "those average people are too stupid to use our l33t system!" . And my point to you is that "those average people" are already l337 and are likely to remain that way. Ignore your audience at your own peril. the best interfaces are those which are intelligent I disagree, the best interfaces are those which are intuitive and consistent from the outset. The great interfaces are those which, from the humble beginnings of consistency, give the user the ability to adapt the interface to his/her specific situation (ie-disability configurations, personalizations, etc.) And I will remain with judgement that Apple has the edge on all current competitors but the simple most elegant and consistent desktop experience came with Warp 4 (and it was also incredibly configurable). And, unfortunately or fortunately for the Linux community, Microsoft is 3rd. Hopefully this will change (or Microsoft will finally break backward compatibility in a gracioius gesture to implement a better security model..or hell will freeze over ;-)) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #235,500
11/22/05 9:08:47 AM
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I never got it with Warp.
I thought it sucked. Fiddly, ugly, corporate horribleness. Like Windows 3, but uglier.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #235,503
11/22/05 9:32:11 AM
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It wasn't pretty, granted
But it was consistent and built to handle common tasks (at the time) quickly and with minimal fuss.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #235,506
11/22/05 9:40:28 AM
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And, it could be made quite pretty
Though nowadays without the AA it's harder to make it look good in comparison to other interfaces.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #235,507
11/22/05 9:44:15 AM
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I thought its font handling was spectacularly awful.
And as I was trying to do document work at the time, that didn't help any at all.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #235,520
11/22/05 11:37:19 AM
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The early iterations of the TT handling _were_ awful
it improved over time, and nowadays if you go and get the OS truetype implementation, it's actually pretty damned good (what's it called, opentype IIRC?), but when it came out TT fonts did look bloody awful... on the screen. It worked fine for print output, but I still prefer using ATM fonts on Warp, despite the fact that TT works very well now. Not least because they work sooooo much better in PDFs.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #235,505
11/22/05 9:40:19 AM
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Re: Nits
Point I made before, define your userbase. For Linux, that userbase is a fairly well educated and fairly technical bunch. And possibly, the alienation of the userbase may have come from a change in project goals...which will generally make enemies of the current userbase if they feel like the changes aren't necessary/warranted (which brings you back to the curse of having smart people as users)
\r\n\r\n GNOME has defined its target userbase. Its target userbase, however, is not necessarily the sort of person who's already using Linux, and a lot of its moves toward simplicity and usability have been undertaken with an eye toward bringing users to Linux who never would have considered the switch before (and who mostly would not have considered the switch because Linux represented a bewilderingly complex and frightening system with an obscene learning curve). Also, there's rally no way to aim for this target userbase without forsaking the "absolutely everything must be configurable in absolutely every conceivable way" crowd. \r\n\r\n I disagree, the best interfaces are those which are intuitive and consistent from the outset. The great interfaces are those which, from the humble beginnings of consistency, give the user the ability to adapt the interface to his/her specific situation (ie-disability configurations, personalizations, etc.)
\r\n\r\n That really is a nit you're picking there. For sake of technical precision, I would have been better off saying "A characteristic of many of the best interfaces is that they are intelligent", but felt no need for such cumbersome language. \r\n\r\n As for alienating the userbase, I don't think it's too much of a problem. The people who were going to switch away from GNOME over this have already done so. The remaining noise is from people who wouldn't use GNOME even if it implemented everything they say they want, and can be safely ignored. --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #235,509
11/22/05 9:59:33 AM
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OT: Please don't put things in quotes unless you're quoting
In this thread especially, some of the arguments have been over what people said. Putting thing in quotation marks that aren't quotations, especially in a thread like this, can add to increased confusion and misunderstanding. For example, you wrote: Also, there's rally no way to aim for this target userbase without forsaking the "absolutely everything must be configurable in absolutely every conceivable way" crowd. I think you're putting words in the mouths of a [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/search/?field_searchUser=-1&field_searchSubject=&field_searchContent=absolutely+everything+must+be+configurable+in+absolutely+every+conceivable+way&field_searchSignature=&field_searchForum=-1&field_boardid=1&submit_ok%3Amethod=Search|crowd] that isn't participating in this thread. ;-) If you want to give your impression of an argument put forward by others, but it's not a quotation, maybe use italics or something. Thank you. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #235,615
11/23/05 4:12:32 AM
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When I quote
I use the blockquote tag. \r\n\r\n And at this point, honestly, there's so much straw lying around I might as well use it to build some men of my own. --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #235,589
11/22/05 8:04:37 PM
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He seems to be listening to you.
Perhaps you could add that the direction the GNOME developers are taking are "we want to you use it thus" instead of "how do you currently use it and what is difficult". This was, IIRC, the nucleus of the disagreement about GNOME's configuration.
Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
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Post #235,849
11/24/05 9:15:15 AM
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Well.
He was being fairly polite. \r\n\r\n Why not go over [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=235846|here], and let's see if we can't have a civilized discussion about configurability? --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #235,929
11/24/05 7:02:05 PM
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Do you blame me for losing my temper? (new thread)
Created as new thread #235928 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=235928|Do you blame me for losing my temper?]
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
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