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New You know what, Andrew
If you really want to understand, go check out a few books on domestic violence and codependency.

Melody Beattie has some great books:

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-1669226-8091967|http://www.amazon.co...4-1669226-8091967]

It sounds to me like you're projecting your failures with women onto womenhood as a whole. Maybe you need to take a look at why you're attacting these kinds of women in the first place. Dont blame all of us for your failed relationships. You played a part in those failures, ya know.
New Well, there's a problem with that . .
I'd have to read a bunch of such books and try to sort the quacks from the non-quacks from the sorta-quacks. That's your field, not mine.

There's nothing worse than a "one book expert". In fact almost all the "off the deep end" ecology / political / economic / psychology nuts I've met were "one book experts" and I don't care to join their ranks, but I don't have time to study the field in depth.

Your emphasizing my "failed relationships" is off base. I don't consider any of my relationships to be failed. Sure, some have been short, and some have had tempestuous spots, but the women I've shared my bed with are my family and I appreciate them all. I have always delighted in my women and do not resent their coming and going or that they are their own persons.

It's true I haven't had a long term committed relationship in the marriage mold (though I've had weekend relationships that lasted way longer than a lot of marriages). Throughout my adult life I've been isolated from wherever the women are (industrial environments, etc.) so the opportunities to find true long term compatibility have been limited.

Given circumstances I haven't done at all badly (at least not since I had the sense to grow a beard), but I wonder at all the women I see and hear about hooked up with real jerks. Do they really prefer jerks as it seems or is it just that the jerks are there first and blocking them from everyone else? Curious.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New All you are hearing are the squeaky wheels.
I am a debater (no crude jokes, I've heard/told them all.)

As a debater, one is trained to investigate both sides of an issue. During the investigation, sources must be determined valid or not valid, biased or not biased; you get the gist.

Judging people on a narrow,albeit vocal,sample is still flawed judgement. The problem with good men/good women hooking up is that our society teaches us all the wrong ways to meet people.

"Hey Baby, what's your sign?"

The truly great way to meet your soulmate is to forget about meeting your soulmate. Go out and be who you are. Stop trying to catch the butterfly and before you know it, it will land in the palm of your hand.

Ask.me.how.I.know :-)

I thought love would never find me. So I quit looking and got involved in something that enriched my existence. Next thing you know, I'm Mrs. Critter.

(hope i'm not embarassing you, sweetie. But our union is a good example of how people meet in a context of mutual interest, then a friendship develops, then progresses to the next level(s).)

There are more people who are "normal" than you know. You just don't hear from them because all the wackos are making all the noise. Put your filter on and go forth, mighty one. It will radically change your life.

Peace, dear one.
Amy


btw, reading is a good way to understand. The best book I ever read is 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. It talks about character-based values versus personality based values. When you realize who/ what you stand for and live by your principles, there is an attractiveness all its own. The best part is: confident, well-rounded people attract same. And like I said, no longer are you the seeker, but the seeked.

FWIW,
a

" I tend to believe the great voices of peace throughout history {were} right, and this voice from this little hamlet here in Texas is absolutely wrong. The world is watching what you do here. It is important that you be calm, that you be peaceful, but you be firm. My grandmother {used to} say, \ufffdFight them \ufffdtil hell freezes over, and when hell freezes over, fight them on the ice.\ufffd

Dallas Reverend Peter Johnson, former staff member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
New Wow what a coincidence!
The truly great way to meet your soulmate is to forget about meeting your soulmate. Go out and be who you are. Stop trying to catch the butterfly and before you know it, it will land in the palm of your hand.


Ask.me.how.I.know :-)


I thought love would never find me. So I quit looking and got involved in something that enriched my existence. Next thing you know, I'm Mrs. Critter.


That's exactly how I wound up with John, he found me After my ex-fiance, I wanted nothing to do with guys, and made that really clear. He however, saw through all that to the real me, talked to me online first on a local BBS, then asked me to meet him at a BBS event. He's been with me ever since that day and eventually I was Mrs. JohnF. :)

Brenda




"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
New Well, it's all not quite that simple.
Go out and be who you are wouldn't work because what I are is mostly home oriented so I wouldn't be out much. Since subpoena servers are rarely women I wouldn't be seeing many (except the clearly married women speaking unidentifiable languages at the ethnic groceries I shop at).

Also, at my age, "it'll just happen" seems a lot less practical - there just ain't that much time left for "happening" to happen. You'll be starting to notice that in a few years. Besides, I'm a guy, and guys are the ones who're supposed to be keeping their eyes open, identifying the victims and taking all the risks. If it were left to women the race would have died out centuries ago.

Right now I'm not sure where I stand with (L) and won't have a hint for a few days yet, but in this week's letter I kinda told her off and I'm not sure how that'll go over. Partial text:

"I'm 'so sensitive' you say. (L), I've got the emotional metabolism of a water buffalo. Any normal (or sane) man would have thrown your butt out of here years ago for the kind of off-hand and insulting treatment I often get from you."

So, if I'm off hunting women that means considerable expense for a sharper car. When you meet a woman the first thing she wants to see is your car. If it doesn't pass muster it doesn't matter what you have to offer, you're through and aren't going to get to offer it.

You can tell me that's not true until you're blue in the face, but I've been there - and been there - and been there and there's no way you'll convince me (unless you know where those mythical "women who aren't like that" hang out). In fact that's how my last practice run ended. Saw car, didn't return calls any more (Lovely, intelligent Hispanic woman).

Cartoon: "Yup, instead of a dating service I bought a Porsche - a lot more expensive but the results are guaranteed".

So that's the deal, I'll have to figure out something I can convince myself I'm interested in that'll put me in contact with "fifty something" women, wherever the hell they hang out - and get a new car - and then "be myself".

Yup, piece 'o cake.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus Aug. 30, 2005, 01:18:57 AM EDT
New While I don't know where women like that are to be found...
I found one who was willing to marry me even though I didn't own a car!

Over the years we've owned one off and on. More off than on. Right now we own 2 cars, and that feels weird to me.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New You might have better luck away from SoCal...
New hmmm glad I dont have that problem
well if you want a good looking hispanic woman a nice looking car is necsecidad since that is usually the only nice thing in their lives. Machismo is measured against all men not just their own. Dont know how you feel about korean ladies, a lot of the bar girls married americans and moved here to find out their man isnt and end up single in their late 40's. They dont need a nice car, they want a man who is. Female lawyers can be found near courthouses and are usually a good score. San Jose is the hot place for females according to a friend of mine who relo'd that way but is a far jaunt from so-cal. Sympathies my friend.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Couple of comments
I, too, am home-based, and the only men who show up at my front door are the mail man (who hates me because my dog tore through the screen to get at him. For the record, once she got her head through the screen she freaked out and just stood there. The mail man was not at risk in any way), and the FedEx guy. Granted, I'll get more exposure when I get a new job, but in a field dominated by women, I aint getting my hopes up.

My big night out is a trip to the grocery store, where I did get hit on once, by a man who was obviously mentally challenged. He followed me down several aisles asking me if I was married until I shook him. My mom takes the kids for an occassional evening, and I usually spend that evening decompressing on the couch with a merlot and a movie. I hang out with friends a lot, but all my friends are married with kids so we usually do family activities.

I can be who I am 24/7, but I dont have a lot of faith that "it'll just happen". And I was "who I am" when I met my ex husband and look where that got me. If being "who I am" attracts that kind of man, and if I'm too dumb not to be able to screen him out, then I'm better off alone.

As for the car thing, I've lived in the "motor city" my whole life and I could care less what kind of car a man drives. Seriously. I've never viewed cars as a status symbol and certainly would not judge a man by his car. But that's just me.

New The old structures are all broken . . .
. . and new ones aren't in place, society's just been changing too fast. Those who most deserve each other are the least likely to find each other. Can't do anything about it, we just have to work around it - but we can bitch.

Hanging out with marrieds does not good. They may know people you ought to meet but they're just plain scared to suggest it. Won't happen.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Something to consider also
I can be who I am 24/7, but I dont have a lot of faith that "it'll just happen". And I was "who I am" when I met my ex husband and look where that got me. If being "who I am" attracts that kind of man, and if I'm too dumb not to be able to screen him out, then I'm better off alone.
]

If you truly take a look at yourself and see things about yourself that are destined to attract those kind of men, you can make efforts to change them.

I am not commenting about you, because I don't know who and what you are, and wouldn't dare to assume. That's for you to assess, no one else.

I'm simply saying that for years, I did attract "those kind of men" who were not good for me, (or anyone else), and my victim-syndrome personality, and behavior caused those attractions. I made efforts to change, and those kind of men vanished from the scene. Instead, I met John, and he is nothing like anyone from my past.

Brenda



"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
New Re: Something to consider also
I was commenting more on the blindness of youth and my inability/stupidity/stubborness to see where the relationship with my ex would take me in 20 years. It's a pity we arent blessed with insight in our youth, nor have we had enough life experiences to develop any hindsight . Truth is, I attracted, pursued and dated some great men. I was seeing a very nice, educated, boyishly cocky guy while I was dating my ex. I chose the wrong guy. There's that hindsight thing again.

I'm not confident in my current ability to choose wisely. Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.
New Re: Something to consider also
I was commenting more on the blindness of youth and my inability/stupidity/stubborness to see where the relationship with my ex would take me in 20 years. It's a pity we arent blessed with insight in our youth, nor have we had enough life experiences to develop any hindsight . Truth is, I attracted, pursued and dated some great men. I was seeing a very nice, educated, boyishly cocky guy while I was dating my ex. I chose the wrong guy. There's that hindsight thing again.


I'm not confident in my current ability to choose wisely. Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.


See, then you've already done what you need to do to make better choices. That's all it takes. And yes, hindsight teaches some really hard lessons.

Good luck with both the job search and the soulmate search. :)

Brenda




"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
New this point shes jus lookin for someone to floss her gnarlies
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New My gnarlies?!?
How quaint.
New Strategizing
Wonders whether hanging about on the flame forum on iwethey is not a particularly productive strategy in meeting people. :-)
New Not really a problem, 'cause I mainly post . . .
. . when I'm too tired to do anything else (often late at night) or while I'm stuck waiting for some stupid computer to finish something.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New What are your passions?
I still maintain that when one loses him/herself in an activity for the sole purpose of atruism,(i.e., volunteering for a non-profit), that is when one is most likely to 1) shine and 2)get picked up.

My divorced friend goes through internet hookups like they are kleenex. I suggested that he volunteer at the local animal shelter, since he is a dog-lover. Not only would he be likely to meet other singles, but he is more likely to have the same values as those people.

It's all about marketing to your target audience. Do you want to be a mass-mailing or a targeted ad to a specific focused group? If you view things in that perspective, then you have a good idea of how and where to start.

As far as the car thing is concerned, as long as it looks nice on the outside (no primer or Bondo going on) and is clean on the inside, that is all that really matters.

So, if I'm off hunting women that means considerable expense for a sharper car.

Again, stop hunting! I agree that men bear the burden of courtship WRT to the asking, risking, etc. But I also feel that when you stop doing a behavior out of desperation, the outcome is usually what you were trying to achieve in the first place.

I realize that you are in an age bracket that makes dating difficult, but I also know that there are the Red Hat Ladies who are in the age bracket you seek. Their primary goal is to have fun. Maybe if you checked out those types of groups, you would have better luck in the dating dept. I know a ton of widows who would die to have a companion. They want to go out to eat like they used to. They want to go dancing.

My mom laments that she wishes she had a gay friend who would take her out dancing and help her decorate her house. I know she's not entirely joking.
I also know she would love to have a more physical relationship with a man, but she won't admit it because she is still grieving my father's death (she feels that if she admitted something like that, then she is not being true to my father's memory. To which I say, "FSck that! He's dead, you're not. Life is for the living!")

So I guess to sum it all up, you can't hide your light under a bushel basket. Add dimension to your life so that you are always coming in contact with people everyday. The more contact with the outside world, the more likely you are to meet someone special. It can't happen all at once, baby steps...baby steps.

Peace, Big hugs and wishing you the best,
Amy







" I tend to believe the great voices of peace throughout history {were} right, and this voice from this little hamlet here in Texas is absolutely wrong. The world is watching what you do here. It is important that you be calm, that you be peaceful, but you be firm. My grandmother {used to} say, \ufffdFight them \ufffdtil hell freezes over, and when hell freezes over, fight them on the ice.\ufffd

Dallas Reverend Peter Johnson, former staff member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
New Yeah, the Internet's a bust.
The Wall Street Journal says it works pretty well for 30 somethings, but almost every woman in my age bracket lists the same imporatant requirement, "Likes to travel" (read "likes to travel and has the leisure time and money for it").

Well, I don't like to travel that much and don't have the leisure time either. The women aren't doing any better though. If I drop in 6 months later the very same faces will all still be at the top of the active list.

Only outside activity I've seen that looks like it might work is politics. I can't work up any enthusiasm for stuff I'm not really interested in - I'm just not the con man type. The stuff I am interested in isn't generally group activities.

As for cars, that's the way women in Los Angeles do their first cut. It's like human resources departments and degrees. By requiring a degree for a job that doesn't need it they can cut the number of people they have to talk to by 80%. Sure, it probably cuts out all the best candidates, but they have to do something, right?

On the other hand I've got a lot of emotional investment in (L), which needs to be resolved one way or t'other. She needs to drop the cold fish act or stop taking advantage of a relationship she denies and refuses to contribute to, or I need to take sharp action. Basically, she's been doing the minimum to string me along and maintain the staus quo - but the status quo is now busted and can't be fixed.


[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New sounds like time for those 3 words lovers use
fine swell bye
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New It's a lot more complicated than normal . . .
. . but it well may come down to that anyway, and soon.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New WTF is "normal"?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Just a suggestion
You might try more "specific" internet. In other words, find a group or board that is locally based, and that meets together. They do exist, they just have to be hunted up.

I met my husband on a local BBS here, in St. Louis. It was a group that actually got together in person and met one another, etc. If you could find something like that in LA, that was locally based, you might have a better chance.

HTH

Brenda



"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
New you norm and john and I'll take your word about john
He would have better odds frequenting S&M gay bars.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Re: you norm and john and I'll take your word about john
He would have better odds frequenting S&M gay bars.


Huh? What's Norman have to do with it? I'm missing something here.

Brenda




"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
New They - both - were what you had on your local boards in St L
But yeah, that's nothing new.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New I see :)
Well, I didn't say every person on a local site was ok, hehehe.

I just meant if you had a local site to actually meet people in person from, you have a better chance of finding a good one among the assholes. :)

Thanks, CRC.

Brenda

Edit: changed bad to assholes per FQ.



"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
Expand Edited by Nightowl Aug. 31, 2005, 11:51:14 AM EDT
     God. Not this again - (bionerd) - (91)
         Hey, Andrew, you caught one ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (16)
             Serious question. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                 To whom was this question directed . . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                 what does michael jackson hafta do with achnod's ole lady? -NT - (boxley)
                 Sheesh. Take a pill. - (mmoffitt)
             Yeah, and Bio's a strong fighter when she has time. - (Andrew Grygus)
             Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street... - (tuberculosis) - (10)
                 Really. Hit songs have lyrics that always ring true? - (bionerd) - (9)
                     No, sometimes they just make ya wanna shake it -NT - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                         True. Let the shaking commence. -NT - (bionerd) - (1)
                             And the LRPD sez, "You want fries with that?" :-D -NT - (imqwerky)
                     Piker! - (jb4) - (3)
                         Close to the edge - (bionerd) - (2)
                             Saw them on Tormato tour - at the Olympia - I was ~14 - wow -NT - (tuberculosis)
                             Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! - (jb4)
                     Not to forget - '..you can feel his disease' - (Ashton) - (1)
                         Re: Not to forget - '..you can feel his disease' - (bionerd)
         All? Of course not, nor even most . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (52)
             Trying to make nice with me now, eh? - (bionerd) - (51)
                 Actually, I know many women who are . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                 I can relate to that - (Nightowl) - (49)
                     You go, girl ! :-) -NT - (bionerd)
                     outing the owlet - (rcareaga) - (47)
                         Re: outing the owlet - (Nightowl) - (35)
                             All this still doesn't answer my original queston. - (Andrew Grygus) - (33)
                                 Trying to explain it... - (Nightowl)
                                 Some possible reasons. - (Another Scott)
                                 MO overlooked - (imqwerky) - (3)
                                     hookers! $50 a pop <400 a month like BK get it yer way -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                         That's only if sex is what you're after. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                     Well, at my age their kids are mostly moved out. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 You know what, Andrew - (bionerd) - (26)
                                     Well, there's a problem with that . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (25)
                                         All you are hearing are the squeaky wheels. - (imqwerky) - (24)
                                             Wow what a coincidence! - (Nightowl)
                                             Well, it's all not quite that simple. - (Andrew Grygus) - (22)
                                                 While I don't know where women like that are to be found... - (ben_tilly)
                                                 You might have better luck away from SoCal... -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                 hmmm glad I dont have that problem - (boxley)
                                                 Couple of comments - (bionerd) - (6)
                                                     The old structures are all broken . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                     Something to consider also - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                         Re: Something to consider also - (bionerd) - (3)
                                                             Re: Something to consider also - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                 this point shes jus lookin for someone to floss her gnarlies -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     My gnarlies?!? - (bionerd)
                                                 Strategizing - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                     Not really a problem, 'cause I mainly post . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                 What are your passions? - (imqwerky) - (9)
                                                     Yeah, the Internet's a bust. - (Andrew Grygus) - (8)
                                                         sounds like time for those 3 words lovers use - (boxley) - (2)
                                                             It's a lot more complicated than normal . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                 WTF is "normal"? -NT - (drewk)
                                                         Just a suggestion - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                             you norm and john and I'll take your word about john - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                 Re: you norm and john and I'll take your word about john - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                     They - both - were what you had on your local boards in St L - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                         I see :) - (Nightowl)
                             hmm , I can understand the antipathy - (boxley)
                         but would he tie a black ribbon around her clit? -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                             Rorschak would have paid a bonus for your ink blot readings - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 that was a literary quip - (boxley)
                         Ass - (bionerd) - (7)
                             Bravo, Laura! - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                 I don't use flame words. - (warmachine)
                             Heh heh..heh heh - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 I think she didnt mean man this time -NT - (boxley)
                             Piss off, he replied mildly - (rcareaga) - (2)
                                 Nah.... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                     Your signature (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
         Why don't you try being dominated for centuries, fellas - (imqwerky) - (20)
             Hmmm . . . what about the claims . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                 Answer to your question. - (imqwerky) - (3)
                     If you took the time to study abusive relationships - (boxley)
                     Unfortunately . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                     I think that would be by ARBitron's standards... -NT - (jb4)
                 And, just for fun...Bitchology - (imqwerky) - (4)
                     Kindly note . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                         I didn't say you did - (imqwerky) - (2)
                             Generation - I'm 62 -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 Yep, fscked up generation, fer sure! - (imqwerky)
             bodecai, Liz the 1st, czarina katherine, ravenolla, Mohawk's - (boxley) - (9)
                 This is getting way too weird... - (imqwerky) - (8)
                     well, just flip her over :-) -NT - (boxley) - (7)
                         For $125/hour I'll do anything you want me to! -NT - (drewk) - (6)
                             I had an interesting question along those lines - (broomberg) - (1)
                                 the uzi wouldnt leave such a bad taste in my mouth - (boxley)
                             I got six dollars, bend over for 3 minutes :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                 For those who missed it, that was a LRPD -NT - (drewk)
                             Come on over, I gots a job or two for ya ;-) - (imqwerky) - (1)
                                 As the wise man said... - (ben_tilly)

None shall pass!
270 ms