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New fucking repo cunt, time to re-instate the draft
[link|http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05223/552161.stm|http://www.post-gaze.../05223/552161.stm]
It was a large home in a well-to-do suburb north of the city. Two American flags adorned the yard. The prospect's mom greeted him wearing an American flag T-shirt.

"I want you to know we support you," she gushed.

Rivera soon reached the limits of her support.

"Military service isn't for our son. It isn't for our kind of people," she told him.
no opt out, only 4f no lottery, you all get to go and the RA can sit home and train the cannon fodder, please note I have a 16 yo son when I state this.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Don't see why a draft is necessary.
1) If the kid wants to enlist, all he has to do is wait until he's 18. Then the recruiters don't have to visit the parents.

2) [link|http://i-newswire.com/pr41921.html|The Army's met its recruiting goals for the past 2 months].

3) There are more people that might be subject to a draft than would be needed. Choices would have to be made, and the people picked would be upset about having their lives disrupted. It would be viewed as unfair because there would be ways for the rich and well-connected to avoid service or to get desk jobs while the poor orphan down the road would be carring his rife through the minefield.

[link|http://strategypage.com/dls/articles/200459.asp|Why The Draft Is Really, Really Dead and Gone].

Even if everyone was subject to the draft, everyone wouldn't have to fight. If things stay as they are, I would bet that a lot of kids would quickly sign up for [link|http://www.sss.gov/classif.htm|seminary training] to try to get a 2-D or 4-D. The SSS page doesn't mention a [link|http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0800/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0800/stories/0801_0106.html|4-F] classification any more.

Even if there were only medical deferments, [link|http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm|those can and would be abused].

BTW, when are you ex-pat Alaskans going to start your march on the papers and TV stations that only mention the [link|http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050808/8highway.htm|Alaska bridge] in the highway bill?

Cheers,
Scott.
New draft is an important policy tool
when a draft is equitable, policy must take into account large segments of your voter base that may be pissed off by foreign policy. As it is now we are paying people in very poor areas a crapload of money to enlist and re-enlist which makes such a force more professional and mercenary. Personally I like mercenaries, they are usually better soldiers for small actions like we have today. Fortunately our founding fathers correctly recognised that a citizen soldier is a self thinking individual who is unlikely to follow orders blindly. A citizen soldiery would not be chicaned into a coup as easily as a well paid professional force.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Machiavelli has lots to say about mercenaries
None of it good.

Though, to be fair, many of his complaints were about what happened in Italy when a good fraction of the battles were mercenaries against mercenaries. The mercenaries agreed to all sorts of rules to make their lives nicer - and then failed miserably when challenged by invaders (eg the French) whose soldiers didn't believe in things like taking breaks at certain times of day.

However he has plenty to say on the risk of mercenaries seizing power. (And he also has some practical advice for mercenaries who wish to successfully do so.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New OK What %congresscritter-sons do you think that will induct?
Or another way:
What are the odds that we (any 'we' coalition) could Get Through Congress any form of draft via which *their* offspring have no [repeat: No] special access to deferments or other opt-outs?

See, I think that's a more direct solution to zealot-Warz than your dream, of the perpetually uninvolved majority of non-voters performing some actual grass-roots Action. And with a hell of a lot less delay ... .... ... awaiting some next election (were such a Bill possible, such as we are today).

New how many congress critters already have kids in the military
ask michael moore, he was nonplussed when he broached that question to some of them, and that footage never aired.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New But there wasn't a real draft in the US until the Civil War.
You make some good points, but I don't think a draft is the solution.

[link|http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_019500_conscription.htm|Conscription in the US]:

Although some states drafted men during the War of 1812, James Madison's administration was unable to enact national conscription (which Daniel Webster, a Federalist opponent, denounced as an attempt at "Napoleonic despotism"), and it was not until the Civil War that the need to sustain massive armies brought a taste of national conscription to America. With a smaller population to draw upon, the Confederacy adopted the draft in 1862, eventually applying it to white males seventeen to fifty years of age. In all, 21 percent of the 1 million Confederate soldiers were conscripts. But by violating individual liberty and states' rights and by including unpopular class-bound occupational exemptions such as for overseers on large plantations, the Confederate conscription act engendered much discontent and considerable resistance.

[...]

Not until World War I did the United States rely primarily upon conscription. The Selective Service Act of 1917 was adopted in large part because a civilian-led "preparedness" movement had persuaded many Americans that a selective national draft was the most equitable and efficient way for an industrial society to raise a wartime army. Woodrow Wilson overcame considerable opposition, particularly from agrarian isolationists in the South and West and ethnic and ideological opponents of the war in the North, to obtain the temporary wartime draft.

[...]

The draft did not end with World War II. Except for a brief hiatus between 1947 and 1948, it helped maintain throughout the cold war a sizable number of men in the armed forces (a mix of volunteers, conscripts, and draft-induced volunteers). During the Korean War, 1.5 million men, eighteen to twenty-five, were drafted; another 1.3 million volunteered, primarily for the navy and air force. Discontent led to an increase in COs (the percentage of inductees exempted as COs grew to nearly 1.5 percent, compared to .15 in each world war). Some 80,000 draft evasion cases were investigated.

Conscription became one of the many casualties of the Vietnam War. After President Lyndon B. Johnson committed American ground troops in 1965, draft calls soared from 100,000 in 1964 to 400,000 in 1966, enabling U.S. forces there to climb from 23,000 military advisers in 1964 to 543,000 troops by 1968.

Although draftees were only a small minority (16 percent) in the American armed forces, they made up the bulk of the infantry riflemen in Vietnam (88 percent by 1969) and accounted for more than half the army's battle deaths. Because of student and other deferments, the draft and the casualties fell disproportionately upon working-class youths, black and white. African-Americans, 11 percent of the U.S. population, accounted for 16 percent of the army's casualties in Vietnam in 1967 (15 percent for the entire war).


One has to remember that many people volunteered once their number was drawing near so that they would get their choice of branch of service and to try to have a little control over their destiny. So it's likely that at least some of that 84% who volunteered might have been less enthusiastic if the draft wasn't in place.

Box writes:
when a draft is equitable, policy must take into account large segments of your voter base that may be pissed off by foreign policy.


Isn't an equitible draft a non-sequitur? :-/

I think a volunteer force more likely to be susceptible to public opinion than a conscripted one. Lack of new people is putting pressure on the Pentagon and the government to modify their tactics. A conscripted force, on the other hand, would have a much longer timeline before they would have to make changes due to lack of personnel.

Continuing from the above link:
Nixon reduced draft calls while gradually withdrawing U.S. troops, but his dispatch of American units across the border into Cambodia in 1970 led to massive public protests. Only reluctantly did Congress in 1971 extend the draft for two more years. The lawmakers also eliminated student deferments and voted a massive ($2.4 billion) pay increase for the lower ranks in order to achieve an avf by mid-1973. During the 1972 election campaign, Nixon cut draft calls to 50,000 and stopped forcing draftees to go to Vietnam. On January 27, 1973, the day a cease-fire was announced, the administration stopped drafting, six months before induction authority expired on July 1, 1973.


If, say, the Army couldn't get volunteer foot soldiers in Vietnam, and there hadn't been a draft, my guess is that US involvement would have been very different.

Bottom line: I think there are too many minuses in having a draft, and I don't expect one to return to the US unless there is some sort of national catastrophe or global cataclysm.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I like the UK model aprez ww2
all kids regardless of ability reported for duty at age 18 for national service, term 2 years. They were then dispatched as needed buy the gov. Now any system has inherent flaws, but getting public resposibility tied to policy decisions is important when it comes to foreign policy. The Georgia guard just dispatched to Iraq and lost 12 men very quickly from small towns surrounding Atlanta, the impact and shock has been reported heavily locally. Now imagine the political will if these were not volunteers, and all kids are at risk. It would be a war run either effectively or not at all.

Again I am supportiver of the decision to invade Iraq, I have strong misgivings about how it was done and the occupation methods. It was done based on extremely bad assumptions and blithley ignoring insurgency capabilities.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New You've got the psychological logic totally wrong, asshole!
Non-Admin Scott blithers:
I think a volunteer force more likely to be susceptible to public opinion than a conscripted one.
How the heck d'you reckon that?!?

A professional force, consisting of professional soldiers, would logically, on the whole, hold views and interests common to... professional soldiers. While a force conscripted from among the general public would, essentially, be the general public.


A conscripted force, on the other hand, would have a much longer timeline before they would have to make changes due to lack of personnel.
Oh. You somehow see a difference between "A force" -- conscripted or not -- and its "personnel". That's a funny way to look at it. I see it differently (and I bet the BOx does too): The views and interests of a military force are identical to those of its personnel, because "a military force" IS "its personnel".

At least, I'd argue, as far as questions like "should I participate in this military coup or not?" are concerned, because that's a question of conscience for each and every member of the force; that's not something that its appointed officers can implicitly trust every man to obey orders on. Well, not in a "citizen army", at least. In a "volunteer" (i.e, professional; ergo, "mercenary") force, though... perhaps a little more so.

Stands to fucking reason, dunnit? How the heck are you suggesting their minds work, to arrive at any other conclusion, you fucking moron?!?


[Edit: Oops, forgot where we're at -- properly flamified now.]


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
Expand Edited by CRConrad Aug. 14, 2005, 05:33:46 PM EDT
New I'll explain it again.
A conscripted force, on the other hand, would have a much longer timeline before they would have to make changes due to lack of personnel.


Oh. You somehow see a difference between "A force" -- conscripted or not -- and its "personnel". That's a funny way to look at it. I see it differently (and I bet the BOx does too): The views and interests of a military force are identical to those of its personnel, because "a military force" IS "its personnel".


I guess the GRAMMER NATZEE GAWD has been slacking off on teaching me how to write clearly.

By they in my statement, I meant the generals and the politicians and the civilian leadership in the Pentagon that makes decisions about when to go to war and how to carry it out. The professionals and politicians who make the decisions. Versus the soldiers who carry out the orders.

I would have thought that was clear from the preceeding sentence:

I think a volunteer force more likely to be susceptible to public opinion than a conscripted one. Lack of new people is putting pressure on the Pentagon and the government to modify their tactics. A conscripted force, on the other hand, would have a much longer timeline before they would have to make changes due to lack of personnel.


But maybe not.

Basically, my point (to use small words) was:

1) If a draft is in place, the terms of it are changed by Congress. Congress works slowly. Draft decisions change slowly.

2) If the military is volunteer, Johnny Reb could change his mind about signing up on Sunday evening after seeing a report on [link|http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml|60 Minutes] or Tuesday evening after seeing a show on [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/|Frontline] about how badly things are going for US troops in Iraq. Volunteer decisions can change instantly. If enough people don't volunteer, then options and tactics change. And policy changes as a result.

Clear enough now, you long-haired, granola eating, tie-dyed T-shirt and Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving, fool, you?

Cheers,
Scott.
(Ummmm. Toasty.)
New "Our kind of people"?!?
What constitutes that? Soulless, gutless, fascist fucknuts who think they are righteously imbued by Godh with the clearly evident right to be better thant the rest of us? (IOW, the archtypical Republican?)

Sounds like a candidate for charter membership in the Bullet-in-the-Brain Club.

Cunt is too kind a word, Box...












(And we'll be happy to make sure that bullet has engraved on it the words: "For Your Kind of People"...)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Their kind of people will still find ways to be exempt



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
     fucking repo cunt, time to re-instate the draft - (boxley) - (11)
         Don't see why a draft is necessary. - (Another Scott) - (8)
             draft is an important policy tool - (boxley) - (7)
                 Machiavelli has lots to say about mercenaries - (ben_tilly)
                 OK What %congresscritter-sons do you think that will induct? - (Ashton) - (1)
                     how many congress critters already have kids in the military - (boxley)
                 But there wasn't a real draft in the US until the Civil War. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     I like the UK model aprez ww2 - (boxley)
                     You've got the psychological logic totally wrong, asshole! - (CRConrad) - (1)
                         I'll explain it again. - (Another Scott)
         "Our kind of people"?!? - (jb4)
         Their kind of people will still find ways to be exempt -NT - (tuberculosis)

I hope you are enjoy it.
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