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New BTW, this discussion should really be moved to
Software Licensing Issues
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Mkay.
Your resentment, your reason that the 'spirit' of the GPL is being violated, is entirely anti-business.
No it is not. What is wrong with contributing them back? Huh? I want those feature and improvements, too. It is the whole reason for the GPL, in the first place. Everyone benefits, everyone contributes, everyone benefits some more. If you are marketing a better mouse trap... "improving on someone else's design" ie a better MySQL than MySQL, the royalties that you would typically need to *PAY* the orginal author/designer/inventor, would be in the form of contributing the source diffs/patches back.

You don't value the ability to change source as a feature of OSS, which, BTW, makes that feature about as useful as 'shared source'.
I don't value the ability to change source? Feh, your comment there is off in the deep-end with little ability to swim. You need to check that comment.

Running a binary is NOT distribution, unless said binary is downloaded and run locally.
Mkay, so what about (as an example) in-browser java applets?
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New Greg, Greg.
Your reasons hinge on anti-business sentiment because your very criteria for 'distribution' (you know, the thing that triggers GPL responsibilities) hinged on 'profit'.

My whole point about this bogus 'loophole' hoo-ha is that EVEN THOUGH DISTRIBUTION OF BINARIES IS NOT OCCURRING, GPLv3 is apparently targeting changes made by businesses. I'm telling you, business, even SMBs, will not pay programmers to make changes if they see no competitive advantage to it. They may use OSS, but the source-code availability will mean NOTHING to them. You don't see this as a problem; ergo, you don't see value in those companies having the source. It's quite simple.

Mkay, so what about (as an example) in-browser java applets?

Now THAT is an interesting point. IMO, since those binaries ARE distributed, the GPL would be triggered.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New since the source of java applets by nature is
open, point is mute.
thanx.
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Hmm dunno 'bout open
Just because you can get to the byte-code doesn't mean that you have any right to change it and use it, or redistribute the changed stuff.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New No, the source isn't.
You can (sometimes) reverse compile the byte codes, however.

<CRC>And it's "moot", BTW. HTH!</CRC>
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New the point is silent as well as not mattering :-)
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Not really
The requirement that source be made available hinges on distribution, doesn't matter if you charge for it or give it away free. We have talking about charging for it because we are talking about a buisness context. Companies don't do things unless they expect to make money off it one way or another.

Jay
New I know - but that was Greg's
point - not mine...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Profit means many things.
[link|http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=profit|"profit"]
  1. a valuable return : GAIN
  2. the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
  3. net income usually for a given period of time
  4. the ratio of profit for a given year to the amount of capital invested or to the value of sales
  5. the compensation accruing to entrepreneurs for the assumption of risk in business enterprise as distinguished from wages or rent
Looky number 1. Kind of sums up why I say and use profit. It doesn't matter if you make money or not on the software. What matters is you profit from it. IOW, you are getting something valuable in return for the Web-Service you provide, be it e-mail addresses, just straight anonymous opinions, feeling of goodwill, money, personal info... anything you might value.

So, tell me, where is the problem here? This is not anti-business, it is anti-"I modified GNU-GPL software and am getting profit for it, and only I have the better <insert software> from other peoples hardwork and I am not going to help them out by giving back my improvments or royalties or usage fees".

Does any of this even matter to you?

One last comment I forgot:
Skip says:
Greg says:
Mkay, so what about (as an example) in-browser java applets?
Now THAT is an interesting point. IMO, since those binaries ARE distributed, the GPL would be triggered.
Why? They are just as ethereal as hosted applications are in the browser

Crud, one more thing: The GPL is not about Skip Entrepeneur who want the biggest advantage over anyone, it is about community and making things right through combined effort.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
Expand Edited by folkert Aug. 10, 2005, 11:54:19 AM EDT
Expand Edited by folkert Aug. 10, 2005, 11:56:48 AM EDT
New C'mon, now.
The applets are run LOCALLY. You know, as in being distributed to your machine?

And as for the first part, that STILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DISTRIBUTION. NOTHING. NADA. ZIP. ZILCH. BUPKIS.

If I were to access a web service locally, with that argument, then any mods I make WOULD STILL HAVE TO BE PUBLISHED. Unless of course you make a change that makes things worse, so there is no 'profit', right? Right? That IS what you are saying.

Like it or not, you are attempting to redefine a term in order to extend the GPL into places the Stallman himself didn't originally intend it to (in fact was [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=218397|against]), and rationalising this by calling it a 'loophole'. IF you want to extend 'distributing' to mean 'running', then just say so. So should the FSF.

Your 'profit' argument rings false too, Greg. Be honest. You did mean profits, as in monies.

Finally, 'Skip Entrepeneur'? ROFL. As I explained to Barry, I have little personal financial stake here. I don't get paid to work on OSS (though it would be nice to if business found it advantageous to MAKE mods - Non-ISV, non-support companies, that is). My ox is not gored here. I think it's too bad that what I feel could be a renaissance for IT in general may get cut off at the knees because of the essential greed that is being displayed by the FSF. That's right, Greg. By the FSF.

And before you again 'pooh-pooh' my opinion, Greg, say this to yourself: "Richard Stallman held Skip's opinion too, before GPLed software went mainstream" (that really does tickle me).



[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New I did mean monies for simplicity.
But, I can see this makes your mind made up, pre-concieved and you are turning into Brett Glass BSD License Biggot^H^H^H^H^H^HZealot^H^H^H^H^H^HSupporter.

From someone we both know, this person made a very good statement:
I would point out that from the point of developing free software, those who will not donate back do not exist and do not count. ... Unfortunately it isn't that simple. Some people are willing to donate back, but only after a lag. That is how a lot of contributions to Apache happened. ... The question is whether it is better to widen the circle of people using and improving software, hoping that you'll wind up with more donations, or whether it is better to narrow that circle but push people in it to donate. That is the fundamental GPL vs BSD argument.


There in lies the end of my discussion with you on this matter. You won't change that feeling, I have never been comfortable with the loophole.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New Ok. Whatever.
Understand that I believe that the GPLv2 is one of the greatest licensing intruments ever designed. It is pro-business AND pro-freedom. It is the reason that OSS has progressed as it has, IMO.

If you want to use words of straw, and decide that I am a 'Brett Glass BSD License Biggot^H^H^H^H^H^HZealot^H^H^H^H^H^HSupporter', well, you are entitled to your own fantasies.

As to 'delaying' as pro-business, some may remember that I once DID propose a 'DPL', or 'Delayed Publc License' while arguing (bitterly) with Brett Glass. It was unnecessary, as I freely admit. You see, I DO possess the ability to admit when I'm wrong.

However, I FEAR the GPL3, if it appears as it has been characterised. It may not be the end of free software, but it may harm a truly great advance. It probably WILL create a USELESS licensing fork. It may harm what I believe could be a renaissance of IT.

It is true that you have not convinced me that use=distribution, or that the web services 'loophole' is even something that must be closed. As for my mind being pre-concieved, well, at least I've given this some thought, and have pondered the consequences.

End Of Line.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New I wish you hadn't done that.
You see, I DO possess the ability to admit when I'm wrong.
So, I guess you are inferring I don't posses the ability. Thanks, Skip. Nice guy, there.
As for my mind being pre-concieved, well, at least I've given this some thought, and have pondered the consequences.
So, I haven't. Thanks. I guess I am a stupid idiot.

I see how it is.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New Why not? According to you, I am a BSD 'biggot'
Don't go 'holier than thou' on me, Greg.

"you are turning into Brett Glass BSD License Biggot^H^H^H^H^H^HZealot^H^H^H^H^H^HSupporter."

Indeed.

It could be that you have no idea how offensive that is to me after my last clash with Glass, on IWE. After simply asking him a question. Perhaps you didn't catch the derision, the scorn, the shame I tried to invoke with my comment 'Brett Glass was right'.

You pissed me off, and that takes doing.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New For that reference, I apologize.
But the rest of the stuff still does stands.

To me it felt like I was arguing with him all over again... Like I asid I apologize for the dissing I gave you in comparing you to Brett.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New Thanks, Greg.
I apologise as well.

But all my points stand, too.

The FSF knows the possibility of a licensing fork over this issue - that's why they have been makng soothing noises, lately.

GPLv2=good

GPLv3=unknown; if the web services clause is anything like what is being discussed on the net, it's big trouble IMO. I am neither alone, nor foolish in my misgivings.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Best to give your input and then switch to...
wait and see mode.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New *grin* After realizing that
the thing that had given me the shivers was the AGPL, and the rest of what I'd heard was just rumor and conjecture, I'd already decided to do just that.

The only reason I continued the discussion, really, was that the idea that running=distribution really bothered me; with that change in definition, then the GPLv2 becomes what I fear.

Again, the reason I fear it is NOT because it's immoral, illegal or anything like that, just that I would like to see a lot more developers employed, and customising GPLed software by non ISVs would (IMO) trigger just that. I'd like to see the GPL as the instrument that 'saves' the industry (in particular I'd have a lot of fun rubbing the 'Glass-types' noses in it... *chuckle*).

I agree that 'wait and see' is definately more appropriate, though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Might I suggest Religion now.
Somehow an attempt at rational debate has turned into this..again.

Thou shalt not question the motives behind GPL.

The only Commandment.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     BTW, this discussion should really be moved to - (imric) - (19)
         Mkay. - (folkert) - (17)
             Greg, Greg. - (imric) - (16)
                 since the source of java applets by nature is - (boxley) - (3)
                     Hmm dunno 'bout open - (imric)
                     No, the source isn't. - (admin) - (1)
                         the point is silent as well as not mattering :-) -NT - (boxley)
                 Not really - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                     I know - but that was Greg's - (imric)
                 Profit means many things. - (folkert) - (9)
                     C'mon, now. - (imric) - (8)
                         I did mean monies for simplicity. - (folkert) - (7)
                             Ok. Whatever. - (imric) - (6)
                                 I wish you hadn't done that. - (folkert) - (5)
                                     Why not? According to you, I am a BSD 'biggot' - (imric) - (4)
                                         For that reference, I apologize. - (folkert) - (3)
                                             Thanks, Greg. - (imric) - (2)
                                                 Best to give your input and then switch to... - (folkert) - (1)
                                                     *grin* After realizing that - (imric)
         Might I suggest Religion now. - (bepatient)

If I have enough time to pro-actively squirt saltwater up my nose, I'd rather use that time to floss.
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