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New Sorry Skip, you are lacking some significant clues
I don't know whether the GPL v3 will succeed in shutting off the web services loophole. But I guarantee you that the result that you describe is what they want to have happen.

As for your complaints about this ruining business, get a clue as to the history. Back when the GPL first came out, everyone said that no business would use it. They made arguments that were exactly analogous to your current argument. Remember, in the late 80s, shrinkwrap had a similar position to webservices today.

Ridicule about the GPL being a communistic pipe-dream started to sound hollow when companies like IBM started making billions off of GPLed software.

Now you're absolutely right that a GPL v3 will be anathema to companies like Amazon, eBay and Google. However you'd have been equally right back in 1992 to say that the GPL v2 was anathema to companies like Microsoft, Lotus and Corel. What you would have missed then, and are missing now, is that only a handful of highly visible companies care, and the potential community of programmers available from the ones to whom that is not an issue can outproduce the big players that you can readily think of.

Whether or not the FSF can get a new version of the GPL accepted and into widespread use is a good question. However the fact that the license is not liked by very visible big web services companies is not going to be a fatal flaw.

And your complaints about it being anti-capitalistic are exactly on par with Microsoft's FUD about the GPL v2 being anti-capitalist. Sure, it runs counter to someone's business model. That's life. Adapt or die. That is the essence of capitalism - you have the opportunity to try to make a profit. But nobody owes you the right to profit. If you can't, that is your problem.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ruining business?
No. Crippling the uptake of GPLed software.
only a handful of highly visible companies care, and the potential community of programmers available from the ones to whom that is not an issue can outproduce the big players that you can readily think of.

And the smaller companies that might have optimized/customised GPLed software will shrink signifigantly. GPLed software may make it into the workplace, but the availabilty of the source will be almost useless for (non-software house) small businesses. It might as well be shrinkwrap.

The potential the GPL has for revitalising IT is crippled by this thing, Ben. Development efforts by non-software houses, customising software for thier needs, will NOT be done. They will just use the software in the same way that they would shrinkwrapped stuff - as provided.
As for your complaints about this ruining business, get a clue as to the history. Back when the GPL first came out, everyone said that no business would use it. They made arguments that were exactly analogous to your current argument. Remember, in the late 80s, shrinkwrap had a similar position to webservices today.

And, back then, I was able to counter the FUD that smply modifying the code and using it did NOT require the release of code. It's no longer FUD under GPL3, though.

Finally, I never said it was anti-capitalistic, or communistic, or any of the straw-words you've thrown out here. It IS targeted against business use of the source code, though. Business may use the code, but customising it for business use? Why bother? A big feature. Gone.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New And you're still missing the point
Most people who use and develop software are working for businesses that aren't primarily about the software. The GPL v3 will not be a significant disincentive for them. And for those who find it a disincentive, there is plenty of free software under other licenses to consider.

As for anti-capitalistic vs anti-business, I apologize for misreading that. However you're still wrong. The GPL v3 is not anti-business. It is against some business models. It is not against lots of other business models.

Confusing being against some business models with being against all businesses is like accusing an effective anti-spyware bill of being anti-business because it will put some prominent spyware manufacturers out of business.

Anyways I don't expect that you're in a mood to listen very well at the moment. Therefore I'm going to suggest that you take a time-out from this thread. Whether or not you follow that advice, I will. I don't see that productive conversation is happening, so I'll take a break from this thread, and perhaps we can rejoin conversation at a later date.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New And that's what I did - I slept on it.
*smile*

However, I think my points still remain valid. No customisations will be done to GPL3ed software (exposed to customers, vendors, brokers, and other third parties) in-house. Especially in SMBs, where the bulk of IT toils. If v3 doesn't change (and it probably won't) what could be a renaissance for IT will probably be over before it starts. Depending on the uptake of the license, of course.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


     This has been bugging me. - (imric) - (72)
         It's the usual cack. - (pwhysall) - (13)
             Nonsense, Peter. - (imric) - (12)
                 I repeat. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                     I care about this, Peter. - (imric) - (2)
                         I don't doubt that you care. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                             It's true that it may be less of a problem - (imric)
                 the fact that you dont distribute your software - (boxley) - (1)
                     disgruntled >>--> Whistleblower laws. -NT - (imric)
                 Also, looky here: - (pwhysall) - (5)
                     ICLRPD (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
                     Woo hoo. - (imric) - (2)
                         Remember, existing GPLv2 software will remain GPLv2 - (pwhysall) - (1)
                             ROFL - just posted that is a mitigating factor... - (imric)
                     He who controls the compiler... - (ChrisR)
         How is it ridiculous? - (JayMehaffey) - (36)
             Bravo. -NT - (folkert) - (23)
                 Guess you don't want to use application source - (imric) - (22)
                     Here is my grounds for poo-pooing your concern. - (folkert) - (6)
                         No. Wrong. And this is why - (imric) - (5)
                             Exactly the kind of response I expected. - (folkert) - (4)
                                 Horsecrap. - (imric) - (3)
                                     The binaries have not been distributed . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                         And then GPL4. - (imric)
                                         Or most OSS used for web services won't be GPL3 -NT - (tonytib)
                     Another train of thought, I need to mention. - (folkert) - (5)
                         question, using go-global - (boxley) - (1)
                             I knowest not. -NT - (folkert)
                         Since MS software is licenced per user - (imric) - (2)
                             No... there is only one user. - (folkert) - (1)
                                 Again, ridiculous. - (imric)
                     Excuse me. I am a programmer. - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                         there is a place for all kinds - (boxley) - (1)
                             Perl's licensing situation is interesting - (ben_tilly)
                         Not at all, Ben. - (imric) - (5)
                             Perspective is all - (ChrisR) - (4)
                                 Pirates? - (imric) - (3)
                                     Pirate analogy is a different issue - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                         I disagree - (broomberg) - (1)
                                             The original instigation for FSF - (ChrisR)
             How is that a 'loophole' unless - (imric) - (11)
                 It's a loophole for the FSF. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                     http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=21 - (imric) - (2)
                         Your point? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                             I started this - (imric)
                     Business Interests - (ChrisR) - (2)
                         Most businesses... - (pwhysall)
                         Same difference, if the apps are GPLed. -NT - (imric)
                 It's contrary to the spirit of the GPL - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                     Except, of course - (imric) - (2)
                         Not anti-Buisness - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                             *shrug* same as BSD - (imric)
         Sorry Skip, you are lacking some significant clues - (ben_tilly) - (3)
             Ruining business? - (imric) - (2)
                 And you're still missing the point - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     And that's what I did - I slept on it. - (imric)
         I was going to say something smart-ass here, - (broomberg) - (14)
             No. You are not listening. Just like the rest. - (imric) - (13)
                 Re: No. You are not listening. Just like the rest. - (bepatient)
                 Religion? - (broomberg) - (5)
                     Listen carefully, now. - (imric) - (4)
                         A collective yawn - (ChrisR) - (3)
                             Long term = 0 - (bepatient)
                             I don't think he's talking about selling mods . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 Correct - reselling not the point. - (imric)
                 I think I understand where you're coming from. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Yeah. I think the 'coming fork' is a bad thing, though -NT - (imric)
                 I think this is where you are going wrong - (JayMehaffey)
                 I am not missing this point. - (folkert) - (2)
                     I see what you're saying - (imric) - (1)
                         BTW, this discussion should really be moved to (new thread) - (imric)
         Several things - (ubernostrum) - (1)
             More good points (new thread) - (imric)

And she wasn't kidding, either, 'cause in came the biggest, meanest looking haddock I'd ever seen come down the pike. He was covered with mussels.
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