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New Short version: it's their own damn fault
Quite remarkable how everyone we've killed Over There either Had It Coming or Shoulda Known Better.
How can the media, in good conscience, print what they did? Look what they are stirring up?
Ayup, the ragheads would settle right down of the durned liberal media would just stop givin' 'em ink.

You know, toots, I give this to Atta's old man and the people they represent: they don't claim, and haven't deluded themselves into believing, that they're doing us any favors. They don't say "oops, sorry" after they slay. And somehow you imagine that our hypocrisy and self-delusion makes us "good." Get a clue yourself.
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Okay. Try again.
Country is in middle of unjust war.
Family wants to claim asylum with occupying military force.
Family loads up the truck to move to Beverly.
Jed-Ahmed heads towards road block and speeds up.
Military force waves at them, jumps up and down, fires shots in the air, saying, "Hey, friend or foe?"
Jed,"WhoooEEEEE! Lookeee there! They shore are glad to see us!, I'm gonna speed up even more!"
Granny," Hand me my jug, Jethro-Mohammed!"
Then they get blasted like Bonnie and Clyde.

BUT...
cut to Mohammed Atta and Daddy...(Leave it to Beaver theme up)
"Gee, Dad, I'm off the Save the Infidels by Blowing them Up and Killing myself at the same time."
"Okay, son! Allah be with you! And don't forget to take the trash out on your way."

Mohammed, "Aww, Daaad!"

There is no hypocrisy with our soldiers. Are you a hypocrite if you make a mistake and then whap yourself on the head proclaiming "Wow! I coulda had a V8"? I don't think so. You are a pretty decent fellow. We are on the same side, IIRC. What we disagree on is what the individuals fighting the battles feel:
Americans: "I came, I saw, I shot somebody, I'm sorry"
Terrorist: "I came, I saw, I blew up infidels and me with it, HAHAHAHAHA!"

Okay, the "get a clue" phrase was out of line, I retract it.

Still, there needs to be some way of preventing further bloodshed of innocents at checkpoints. I also lay blame on our military. Do we not have those wonderful night vision thingies?


Ayup, the ragheads would settle right down of the durned liberal media would just stop givin' 'em ink.


I'm not blaming liberal media either...Faux news is just as bad. It's too bad you don't hear about the good things that are being done in Iraq. And I am totally against us being there, but we are in it and we have to finish what we started, so might as well buckle up and ride it out.

I don't know. The whole thing turns my stomach.

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

Expand Edited by imqwerky July 20, 2005, 03:08:39 PM EDT
Expand Edited by imqwerky July 20, 2005, 03:09:39 PM EDT
New No. sale. {ka-ching}
Amy, I am sure that you are a good person, having read a variety of your comments. I am sure that Rand is too, having met him more than once. You also are relatively free of the stupid-banal @#$%^ BS slogans! that provide the noise all around, in that famous ratio, signal/noise.

So as one bit-of-a-snip to another, as regards:
It's too bad you don't hear about the good things that are being done in Iraq. And I am totally against us being there, but we are in it and we have to finish what we started, so might as well buckle up and ride it out.


1) Good Things..
When decent people are being sent, even illegally as here: via massive premeditated lies and a barrage of propaganda learned at the knee of Paul Joseph G\ufffdbbels - most of these Will try to make the best of a situation they cannot even resign from, without being killed-virtually/socially, if not actually. They Will pass out the chocko bars. They Will help a kid, etc. Nobody. Here. Imagines. GIs. as Repo-Animals. Clear?

There is no surprise here.

2) but we are in it and we have to finish what we started, so might as well buckle up and ride it out.

That's precisely where Our Top-Berserker's confusion about the difference between Stoic Determination and just plain fucking adolescent-Stubborness -as base character flaw- Hits The [and My] Fan. Y'know?

Ride WHAT out? Do you mean - erase-all-memory of that Other day-by-day slaughter, wherin were offed 58,xxx Muricans AND anywhere from 1.5 to 4 million slopes?
('cause that's what our GIs Called Those People).

Today our xenophobes call the newest of our ones-to-be-freed: ragheads. See a pattern here? Ever thus. (It ain't just Texans who like to coin colorful derogatory phrases, either.) Why I recall mick, kike, nigger, spic and a few dozen others.. from them White Christian folk around me, as a tyke and On---> Today.

Recall.. 'suckin the snot outta a dead ___'s nose' ??

We should continue to commit seppuku and mayhem -
Because This Cabal Says"We Shall Stay There for 12 YEARS If We Must" cha cha cha.. ???
(paraphrase of Rummy's most recent offhand retort, which I heard in livid hi-fi audio)

Sorry Amy.. Nope. Not again. And... SO SOON after last atrocity.
It is So Very Far from being this simple, even in a culture which adores the simplistic (and I have noticed already that you Aren't a one who spouts, knowingly, the usual Orwellian slogans - nor do I see any signs at all, of religio-adoration) of this self-proclaimed Junior-Jesus -- he who intentionally precipitated this Land War in Asia\ufffd, with pious-malice aforethought.

I shall not, Cannot join you in Any variety of, "let's shoulder the burden and win, get this over; declare Victory-again and then congratulate ourselves for, once again Spreading Freedom," cha.cha.cha.

Nope, I remember Joe McCarthy live on B/W Tee Vee gettin his head handed to him on a crusty platter, by Welch. This repeat-time around for the Idiot Sons of Joe - -

I Want Blood - Neoconman blood, the blood of Chickenhawks: to trivially-match that already spilled, that already budgeted-for next AND

all-that-coming blood: assuredly to be spilled by the newly created baby-terrorists, orphans of Just Such as precipitated this thread! who shall be

Returning. Our. Favors.

No Sale on the 'finishing what we started' road,

Ashton


The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.
-- Georgia Harkness in "Conflicts in Religious Thought" (1929) via Alex
New I see your point
but let's think this through.

What would a wholesale withdrawal in, say, 3 months give way to?

I'm asking sincerely. Would all the work on infrastructure be blown to bits? Would the roving insurgent groups begin to take over towns and would civil wars ensue?

What is your take? Do you care? Hell, I don't even know if I give a shit anymore.

Blown to pieces,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

New It's not hard to see what would happen.
The Kurdish areas would remain about the same. There would be continuing battles over Mosul and the oil areas, but they would muddle through. Tensions with Turkey may increase significantly though.

The Shia areas around Basra would remain about the same. There would probably continue to be occasional attacks on the pipelines and the ports, but they would muddle through. It's hard to know at this point how Iran would regard its young weak neighbor.

Remember Sadr City and Falluja a year or two ago? Without some sort of government authority in those areas, the various militias and insurgent groups would have (or try to have) their way. Baghdad would again become a battle ground between various factions.

In short, the center of the country would become a huge mess. Yes, even worse than it is now.

Would foreigners invest in Iraq and help them improve their infrastucture and raise their standard of living? Highly doubtful. The country would stumble from crisis to crisis and vast stretches of the desert could well end up being ungovernable and havens for al Qaeda-types.

It's not an option to pull out prematurely, IMHO. I agree with you that we have to stick it out, learn from our mistakes, and do everything we can to help the Iraqis carry the load. Rumsfeld's right that only the Iraqis can beat the insurgency, but they can't do it alone.

To address Rand and Ashton's concerns - it's very different from Vietnam. There aren't 2 superpowers supporting the other side. We (the "Coalition" and the Iraqi government) are not fighting a several million man army (the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Army_of_Vietnam|NVA ] and the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong|Viet Cong]). We're fighting something like the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA|IRA] or the [link|http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/shiningpath.html|Shining Path] in that they are a relatively small group but can engage in extreme violence. They can cause trouble for a long time, but they cannot succeed in turning the country into a 16th century paradise (sic) if we help them and if the people of the country have the courage to stand up for themselves. In that sense it could become like Vietnam (but I don't think it will). The South Vietnamese government was terribly corrupt and the army didn't have the support of the people. They collapsed shortly after the US left. I don't think that will happen in Iraq (people there are risking their lives to become policemen and members of the government and clearly understand the importance of what they're doing and the risks), but it's an open question whether the population will choose wisely once the US presence winds down significantly.

We'll see...

</me donns his asbestos underwear and niobium hat.>

Cheers,
Scott.
     How many people have to die? - (imqwerky) - (7)
         not to stick up for viega too much - (boxley)
         Short version: it's their own damn fault - (rcareaga) - (4)
             Okay. Try again. - (imqwerky) - (3)
                 No. sale. {ka-ching} - (Ashton) - (2)
                     I see your point - (imqwerky) - (1)
                         It's not hard to see what would happen. - (Another Scott)
         What Rand said. - (pwhysall)

He clearly said, "To blave".
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