Post #215,412
7/18/05 3:45:18 PM
7/18/05 3:47:44 PM
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Fuck you.
How many fucking hospitals have you worked in? How many fucking clinicians have you known? WTF do you know about any of this?
[And another thing]
You've obviously bought in to the capitalist view of everything. No one could possibly go into medicine for altruistic reasons could they? Fuck-wad idiot. And which would you rather have work on your sorry ass? The one in it for the bucks or the one in it to help you.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Edited by mmoffitt
July 18, 2005, 03:46:27 PM EDT
Edited by mmoffitt
July 18, 2005, 03:47:44 PM EDT
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Post #215,416
7/18/05 4:01:34 PM
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You could say that about any profession
We just had that discussion about programmers. All else being equal, the ones who went into it for the money aren't typically aren't as good as the ones who love it. Problem is if there's no money in it, lots of people who could be good won't see it as worth the effort. The question is how to get the ones who love it, and still compensate them fairly.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #215,417
7/18/05 4:03:47 PM
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Fairly?
Think about the doctor/soldier thing for a moment.
If you're a doctor, and I'm the customer, and you fuck up, I die. You get to have another go with another customer.
If you're a soldier, and I'm the "customer", and you fuck up, you die. You get on the news. Perhaps.
Think on.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #215,426
7/18/05 4:28:06 PM
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Those going into soldiering often don't have better options
No, not always. But often enough that we're not talking about the same applicant pool. And yes, I was enlisted; and no I didn't have better options available. When you talk about fair compensation, you have to look at qualifications as well as consequences.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #215,427
7/18/05 4:29:21 PM
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What about the officers?
They seem to be getting themselves killed in Iraq just as easily as the squaddies. And you sure as shit don't get into Sandhurst for being a thickie.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #215,438
7/18/05 4:44:47 PM
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They get paid quite a bit better
[link|http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp|http://www.militaryf...ary_pay_scale.asp]
No, it doesn't look like a ton of money. But if you consider the free 4-year education while in ROTC as a signing bonus ...
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #215,448
7/18/05 5:01:51 PM
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Not necessarily
If you ask a teacher why they went into teaching, they sure as shit don't say it is for the money. And there are lots of very good teachers out there.
But if you ask a doctor why they chose their profession,well, you get many different responses.
Usually, " I could make a damn nice living looking up women's twats" or " Colons have always fascinated me and I realized there is a niche market with the boomers aging and all."
Peace,
Amy
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"
.
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Post #215,483
7/18/05 9:16:59 PM
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Priorities
We don't care fuck-all about education. Wait, we don't care fuck-all about educating other people's kids. So there is no money in it. The only people who go into teaching do it because they love it. Then we pay them shit and burn them out. Except for the lucky few who end up at private schools.
But fixing the damage we do to ourselves with the lifestyles we don't want to fix? That's worth some coin. So medicine also attracts the ones just looking for the money. But since the serious dough is in specialization, that's what everyone does.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #215,419
7/18/05 4:11:09 PM
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And who the hell is gonna pay for the education?
Who is going to pay for malpractice insurance? As overblown as that is, it still COSTS. Like it or not, the price of a doctor's education is an investment. 'Impoverish' hospitals clinics, and clinicians, and you'll get what you pay for. And which would you rather have work on your sorry ass? The one in it for the bucks or the one in it to help you. Somebody that knows what they are doing. Someone educated beyond the Matchbook School of Medical Professionals. Unless of course, you are also going to say all education should be 'free'. Hell we've been impoverishing teachers for years, requiring huge educational investments for low salaried jobs, staffed by people who do it for love. THAT'S worked out well, hasn't it? I'm sure we'd get folk that do it for love. Enough of them? FUCK no. Moron. As to doctors, nurses, and clinicians, well, you know fuck-all about me, my friends, OR relatives. I do know that your cloud-cuckoo ideas simply DO NOT WORK in the real world. Gonna get 'the government' to pay? Who pays the government? Gonna rape business? Then business will go elsewhere for dollars. Impoverish hospitals and clinicians in order to get universal health care? If it happens, I wanna be there to laugh when you complain about bad care causing you or your loved ones damages. Guess what, moderation+capitalism WORKS. Or problems stem from extremist positions. You would trade one nightmare for another. Count me out. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #215,420
7/18/05 4:17:37 PM
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next time mikey gets sick, send him to the va
hopefully they will see him before the undertaker does.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #215,424
7/18/05 4:24:46 PM
7/18/05 4:25:14 PM
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Yet another example of "supporting our troops"
The VA system is underfunded. [link|http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Jul/20050717News012.asp|http://www.columbiat...050717News012.asp]
According to this administration, objecting to sending our soldiers into harms way is not supporting them, while not taking care of them once they are sick and/or injured is. This is a definition of "support" that I cannot agree with.
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Edited by ben_tilly
July 18, 2005, 04:25:14 PM EDT
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Post #215,421
7/18/05 4:19:09 PM
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Ping-pong policy-making...?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #215,422
7/18/05 4:19:52 PM
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You said it!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,425
7/18/05 4:25:45 PM
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We manage alright over here...
...and our doctors are not paid anywhere near as much as yours. They don't starve, however :-)
The malpractice insurance is, to my eyes, a symptom of an excessively litigious society where everyone needs compensation for everything and there's always someone to blame.
Moral of this tale?
It *can* be done. It *has* been done. It'll probably never be feasible in the USA, because there's an entire industry based around things NOT being like they are in the UK, and too many people with money and influence stand to lose some of that.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #215,429
7/18/05 4:32:34 PM
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Litigious fucks.
Again, no-one is ever at fault here. There are never risks to doing anything - if there's a problem that results from ANY action, sue! It's like playing the lottery.
Entirely removing the ability to sue is also a problem (If my surgeon is drunk, or performs the wrong procedure, etc. and hurts me, I sure as hell want the right to sue the bastard).
It'll all end in disaster. Hell, it IS a disaster.
Of course, malpractice insurance is not the only problem - I don't mean to imply that it is.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #215,449
7/18/05 5:02:09 PM
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If your hypothetical MD does as you say,
you'll be damned lucky if you win. Never underestimate the power of the AMA. And because we've embraced your idiotic "it's a business" viewpoint, it makes it even more unlikely that your wrong-doing hypothetical clinician will ever be disciplined and the argument against any real punishment is one you would support! "We have so much invested in this person's medical education, we, as a society cannot afford to scrap it."
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,453
7/18/05 5:14:48 PM
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So you're against the Physician's union?
As far as 'it's a business' - well, when you have to pay that much to become a doctor, guess what? The money has to come from somewhere. Like the physician, maybe? Oh, no - the 'government can pay'. Ignoring where the money comes from initially, of course. And of course, huge centralized planning facilities must be more efficient and less corrupt than any other solution. THAT's why the States can't be trusted with such a task - only A Central Planning Committee could do it the way it should be - right?
And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies.
Think, man, think! I expected better from you. Someone who holds such idiotic ideas MUST be have gotten at least a few decent ideas on how to defend them by now!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,607
7/19/05 1:20:38 PM
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Huh?
And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies.
It's really much simpler than that. It's just two fat cat capitalists going after the same dollars.
BTW, there are plenty of opportunities for Med School expenses to be paid back in full by serving in underserved areas. Of course, most physicians (not all to be sure, but the vast majority of them) are money hungry fascists who will not willingly give anything to anyone, so most don't take advantage of these programs.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,621
7/19/05 2:34:43 PM
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Yeah. Right.
"And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies." "It's really much simpler than that. It's just two fat cat capitalists going after the same dollars." Nice argument. It's what I'm coming to expect, here. So - insurance isn't needed, because the AMA protects the doctors, but doctors are paying the insurers because doctors are 'fat cat capitalists', eh? I wasn't aware that 'fat cat capitalists' were so prone to throwing money away unnecessarily. And tell me, pray - these 'programs' that doctors can take advantage of to pay off their expenses for both school and liability - they are, of course, more than enough to supply the country with medical help, no? Got ANY figures? No? Well, what's your answer (since you want to IMPOVERISH - your word - the medical community) then? Let's see, there aren't enough to do it for love, there shouldn't be any monetary incentive (if you have your way), and still you think there should be plenty of doctors willing to shoulder the huge resonsibility of preserving human life. Riiiiight. The only way YOUR way would work would be to FORCE people to be doctors. Just think of the care you'd get then, eh? Once again, you take the worst stereotypes you can imagine (doctors that 'won't willingly give anything to anybody' 'fat cat capitalists' 'money hungry facists', etc, etc), extrapolate those qualities to the entire set, and then try and use that as a 'rationalization' for depriving everybody in the group. Your straw men live in whole straw villages, apparently. For the record, when I was poor, I had an orthopedic surgeon write off a full orthopedic reconstruction, including anasthesiology, hospital stay, EVERYTHING - without it ever going to collections or being marked on my credit report. I've had doctors give me free treatment including antibiotics and drugs, too, when I couldn't pay. Those BASTARDS. Those money-grubbing capitalist fascist BASTARDS. How DARE they give the poor free care? And of course, the drain on finances for hospitals that DON'T throw the poor into the street because they can't pay is just imaginary. After all, thats the MO for hospitals, right? We'll just ignore the care my dirt poor, uninsured buddy with MS gets, the dental care my other friends have recieved when they didn't have a pot to piss in (true, just extractions, but still), and all the other things those evil capitalistic bastards do when they can. In short, you are FULL OF IT. You apparently only have simplistic, poorly thought out arguments fuelled by your hatred of the extreme ends of capitalism. If you are a typical 'communist', it's no wonder communism is a laughingstock. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #215,646
7/19/05 4:36:18 PM
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You can't even fucking read, can you skippy?
Once again, you take the worst stereotypes you can imagine (doctors that 'won't willingly give anything to anybody' 'fat cat capitalists' 'money hungry facists', etc, etc), extrapolate those qualities to the entire set,...
The entire set? Here's me, in my own words (emphasis added because you cannot fucking read for content):
Of course, most physicians (not all to be sure, but the vast majority of them)
Jesus, man, if I couldn't read any better than that I think I'd remember the old adage that "'Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" a little more clearly.
My whole fucking point is, (and I realize that you are at a disadvantage as you have the comprehensive abilities of a gnat), that good medical care is not available only when obscenely high monetary rewards are offered. You're fucking arguing my point and calling me an idiot! You are too much, really.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,650
7/19/05 4:57:17 PM
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Ok, cretin.
Just because you make a disclaimer that some doctors may be ok, then go on to call most of them fascists, pigs, etc, etc don't cut it, pinhead. I don't lead THAT charmed a life that I can believe that (based on the doctors and med-staf I KNOW and am RELATED TO) 'most physicians' are greedy shits out to soak people. If that's what floats your boat, bubby, then by all means hallucinate away. You can live in your little black-and-white fantasy world where 'impoverishing clinicians' is the right thing to do, but like I said, I want to be there to laugh when you complain about the state of medical care if even a FRACTION of your brain-dead ideas are ever put into place.
You didn't say anything moderate, you fucking asshole. You weren't arguing specifically against obscenely high medical rates - you were arguing to IMPOVERISH (remember that word? No? Syphilis kick in again?) medical workers. Then you tried to insist that doctors aren't REALLY under financial pressure, that the AMA protected them from any liability, and that they can pay off all expenses by going to underserved areas to practice.
In closing, you moronic get of a diseased babboon - you haven't managed to actually SAY anything that makes any kind of point, or even makes any SENSE, at all!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,651
7/19/05 5:04:56 PM
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Again, you mislead.
Impoverish physicians != Impoverish all medical workers. HTH, pinhead.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,657
7/19/05 5:35:36 PM
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_I_ mislead?
You tell me I can't read when you can't even decipher what you wrote? Here: "And, if we are going to be able to afford it, clinicians and hospitals are going to have to be impoverished." cli\ufffdni\ufffdcian Pronunciation Key (kl-nshn) n. - A health professional, such as a physician, psychiatrist, psychologist, or nurse, involved in clinical practice, as distinguished from one specializing in research.
- A health professional who practices at a clinic.
Why do I keep having to throw the dictionary at you? [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,660
7/19/05 5:54:22 PM
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Free clue, knucklefuckers.
Take this to Politics.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #215,661
7/19/05 5:57:59 PM
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But I'm having too much fun HERE!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,664
7/19/05 6:02:39 PM
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Crap. I c. My bad.
I had this argument with a few physicians my wife works with that we had at a party a couple of years ago. I've always refused to call a physician "doctor" and was arguing with the MDs that they were clinicians, not doctors; for, doctors wrote and defended dissertations and mds did not. After quite a few beers and a visit to m-w.com, they all agreed that "clinician" fit them better than "doctor". So, when I say "clinician" I mean "physician". One of them even introduces himself as "Clinician X" to patients in the ER now. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,671
7/19/05 6:35:44 PM
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OK
I still say the problem isn't greedy doctors. Or hospitals, for that matter.
It's the goddamned insurance companies, and their partners in 'crime', the lawyers.
I've worked in the insurance industry in one capacity or another for the last 23 years; the profit margins are obscene, regulation is minimal, and government falls all over itself to make insurance mandatory.
It's not just MDs of course, the insurance industry infects everything.
Having said that, one of the reasons I'm happy with my current job is that my current employer is one of the most moral insurers I've ever worked for - they allow employees a say in company policies, the CEO has informal chat sessions with low-level employees in order to get an idea about problems, and they don't rape their customers. Our economic landscape might be a LOT better if more companies were like this one. I plan to stay here a long time; I don't feel dirty workng here. I only hope they keep it up as they grow.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #215,446
7/18/05 4:59:53 PM
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Amen, with caveat.
The insurance industry in this country is an outright scam. It is a scam that helps feed the clinicians the excessive salaries they demand. The truth is that the amounts paid out in malpractice claims have remained almost constant, yet the premiums have escalated fairly dramatically in some states - but not all.
The reason you hear all this gnashing of teeth concerning malpractice and tort lawyers is that clinicians here absolutely hate to give up anything.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,458
7/18/05 5:34:22 PM
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The escalation of premiums is tied to the stock market
By law insurance companies have to keep specified cash reserves. They keep a lot of that as stock. If the stock market does well the extra income lets them charge smaller premiums. If it does poorly, well...
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #215,610
7/19/05 1:25:17 PM
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I know about Reserve requirements, but,
and investments by insurance companies. But that is clearly not the only thing driving up premiums.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,658
7/19/05 5:39:57 PM
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You may want to look into this further
Because the empirical data actually does corrolate quite nicely to market returns.
Had to do that homework because of the current noise in PA. Argument was for tort reform. However, litigation was down and awards were down in a period where premiums were going through the roof. What changed? The stock market.
Sure there may be other factors. But they are minor in comparison.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #215,666
7/19/05 6:07:48 PM
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Excellent point.
The real driver for higher premiums is insurance company profit. Which, as you and Ben rightly point out, is tied to market returns. It's been a while since I worked for an HMO (2000), but back then - and I realize this is a state issue - we had to have 6 weeks of claims in reserve. For all my ranting, I realize that physician salaries, while excessive, are not going to solve the problem. Ultimately, I think my old CFO put his finger on it when he said, "The real problem with healthcare is that we spend 80% of the money we spend on healthcare in our last two months of life. If people could just accept that dying is a consequence of being born, we could save a ton of money."
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,724
7/20/05 3:19:42 AM
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80 % of deaths occur in hospitals - let's tear 'em all down!
Mike Moffs it: Ultimately, I think my old CFO put his finger on it when he said, "The real problem with healthcare is that we spend 80% of the money we spend on healthcare in our last two months of life. If people could just accept that dying is a consequence of being born, we could save a ton of money." I think I see what you (and he) *mean*... But I'm not quite sure that that is what you (and he) are *saying*, exactly. I mean, the money we spend on healthcare gets spent *when we are ill* -- when the heck *else* would you spend it? And when we are ill is also, logically and inevitably, when we are liable to die -- so all too often it turns out that the period we spent spending money on healthcare also was our last. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try at all to treat illnesses that are in principle treatable, now does it? Yes, yes, I know you were really talking about ultimately futile efforts to prolong the very last days of a life that is actually already all but over -- but the way you (or your old CFO) put it, it *sounds* a bit like the fallacy in my "Subject:" line.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #215,753
7/20/05 12:05:34 PM
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No, they're talking about terminal cases
Remember Terry what's-er-name? That's the people we're talking about. Doctors aren't allowed to ask the question, "But if we keep the heart beating, is that really 'alive'?" I've heard people demand heroic measures, "just to have one more day with him." If even in your most optimistic projections you can't see more than a couple of days or weeks, how about making them comfortable? Nope, gotta prolong that life. Fight to the bitter end. And it will be bitter.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #215,785
7/20/05 3:40:30 PM
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A) Schiavo. B) Yeah, I know. C) Yup, as Fernet-Branca grappa
D) But still, *the way he put it* made it *sound* like it would also include cases a la "Dang, it was *this* close that it would all just have been a bad memeory for him to tell his grandkids forty years from now". The ones where it becomes clear only afterwards that the period when one spent all that dough turned out to be ones last. (For *those* cases, "most of what we spend is at the end!" *is* a fallacy pretty much like my "shut down the hospitals!" joke[let].) Sure, I know that wasn't what he *meant* to talk about... But his ex-CFO happened to *do* so.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #215,642
7/19/05 4:09:22 PM
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A Flash of Brilliance!
I know! We don't need to socialized medical care....we need socialized insurance!!! Those are the whores! Those are the bastards who are jacking up health care costs. HMO's are not the answer. They suck. I have worked too long building a relationship with my healthcare providers to have some dickhead behind a desk who couldn't give a shit about me or my family tell me that I have to switch providers. I should be able to see who I want, when I want. I am an educated person.
Yes, I know, not the norm, but, damn it, let's do what is right and have free healthcare for children up until the age of 18. Healthy kids = healthy adults!
Teach 'em while they are young to be active participants in their own destiny. Knowledge is power and by God, Doctors aren't God. It is a partnership and an exchange of information. Teach people to take ownership and responsibility for their lives. Wow! What a concept! Think of the Domino Effect!
Let me put my money in an HSA and let the govmint match my contribs...all tax free. By phasing in such a plan, and growing healthier Citizens of the USA, over a period of 10 years or so (?) the plan should begin to pay for itself (from less crack babies, less birth defects, less drain on society in the future,etc, etc.)
Ok, so I may not know the timeline exactly, but you get the drift.
Feels good to finally get this out somewhere. Have been keeping this bottled up for too damn long.
Have at it, boys.
Peace,
Amy
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"
.
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Post #215,647
7/19/05 4:37:25 PM
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Aside: Know what the difference between God and an MD is?
God doesn't think he's an MD.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #215,663
7/19/05 6:00:17 PM
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Good one!
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"
.
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Post #215,848
7/20/05 11:35:13 PM
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Wanna fix that habit they have?
Get up off your knees (and bring along a Nurse who ever Ever! utters.. "Doctor says that ___" - omitting the The in front, or a name behind)
HtH
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Post #215,648
7/19/05 4:43:46 PM
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Socialized insurance is what Canada has :-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #215,665
7/19/05 6:07:13 PM
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Study this more I will, yessssssssss.
If Canada can do it, WE can do it better. (Hitchin' up our collective britches and hockin' a loogie at ye olde spittoone)
:-P
Peace, Pardner!
Amy
(Yes, I know, I mixed my references, Yoda/Wild, Wild, West...but, hey, it was funny! Can't you see the little guy in chaps and spurs and a little ten gallon hat with his pointy green ears sticking out? LOL!!! Fastest lightsabre in the West!)
a.
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"
.
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Post #215,723
7/20/05 2:59:10 AM
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Isn't there a bit of Gollum in there too, yessssssssss? :-)
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Post #215,782
7/20/05 3:24:32 PM
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Wellll, it should have been more of a yeeeeeeeees.
intonation up, then down.
(winky winky, smile)
Peace,
Amy
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"
.
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Post #216,005
7/21/05 9:45:40 PM
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"Patient, what would you like me to prescribe?"
A doctor that comes to work drink.
A hyfrecator used without local anestesia.
Leaving half-pint container for peeing for a recovering lad who can't get up, overnight.
Feeding a woman thyroid hormones after mis-diagnosing hypotherios. For two years.
Stuffing a mononucleosis patient with penicillin, to which he is violently allergic. For two weeks.
Beds in corridors being preferable to beds in wards because there, the nurses at least pass you by.
Nurse aides who don't even pretend to help the patient - "She is too heavy, we'd rupture ourself. And she has relatives who come twice daily anyway".
Stench in hospital that litrally carries you off your feet.
Enough?
Yes, I bought the capitalist view of medicine. Try not paying your doctors and nurses, you'll get no fucking doctors no matter what your goddamn law says.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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Post #216,040
7/22/05 12:32:40 AM
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Only the best for me ;-) signed The patient Patient
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #216,080
7/22/05 11:18:52 AM
7/22/05 11:36:43 AM
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And you think none of that happens when you pay them?
Let me tell you of one of my first experiences with how great the care is you receive when physicians are paid obscene salaries.
I was working as Lab Assistant at a reference medical lab in Inglewood. Among other things, we'd do pregnancy tests for physician offices around the city. We get this one from a posh office in Marina Del Rey. Okay, so we send back a titer that estimates about 2 months pregnant. New physician starts working at the office. The patient comes back in to see him and schedule an abortion. He looks at the chart and decides D & C. So, she's there on the table when she dies - bled out - the physician couldn't get all the tissue so he kept scrapping and vacuuming until he ripped her uterus lose and she bled to death on his table. Why did this happen? Because the vaunted, well paid physician failed to notice that our test had been done 4 months prior. So, the patient was not 8 weeks pregnant, but 24 weeks pregnant. That's what the glorious medical review board found as well. His penance for killing this young girl? Oh, well, you'll have to work in a free clinic for 12 months you bad boy.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Edited by mmoffitt
July 22, 2005, 11:36:43 AM EDT
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Post #216,082
7/22/05 11:48:25 AM
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And another
I almost bled to death on an ER gurney, where I was left to sit for three hours before anybody even came to check me out. When I finally got out of the OR, I was stuck in a double room with a guy who's appendix had burst - he had repeatedly told his doctor, "I have appendicitis, do something about it NOW," and the doctor kept telling him, "No you don't, go home."
My wife was told, alternately, that she had scabies/allergic reaction/something else for about five years before a doctor finally diagnosed her as having pernio.
We have insurance. We pay our bills. We still get screwed. Yes, doctors should get paid. But the system does need to be reigned in and controlled, especially the insurance company side. Malpractice should stand, but non-compensatory (pain + suffering, etc.) damages should be capped as a multiplier of the compensatory judgement.
Get the damn system working for the PEOPLE again, not for the doctors/pharmaceutical/insurance companies.
apt-get install godlike-powers
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Post #216,086
7/22/05 11:55:52 AM
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Agreed.
Getting the system working for the people is what's needed.
That said, I find it a pity that today in 2005 we must still (as Jesse Jackson noted in his 1984 speech to the Democratic Convention) "Dream about doctors [physicians] more concerned with public health than personal wealth."
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #216,142
7/22/05 5:41:22 PM
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Inconsistent with Puritannical roots.___(really!) Sorry.
Muricans adore the Trumps/Billys - the Winner-take-All [no matter How Won].
(Is this not evident without 42 links?)
THAT is our ethos and our Actual 'God'-thing and no amount of bloodless wrangling, caucusi and watered-down 'arrangements' can go against That Grain. Not if history (or herstory) are any guide whatsoever.
I. See. Blood.
(if indeed, there are -???- more than a handful left about, with the requisite Guts.)
Did I mention - We're Fucked? - by popular collaboration.
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Post #217,178
8/3/05 8:10:51 AM
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The above crap happened to 4 people
over the space of 15 years. Not something I heard or saw in the hospital. If I'd start telling you the things I saw in the hospital, your hair would stand on end, for days. Like ninty-year-old "babushka" dying of hunger in the filth of her own excrements because she had no relatives to care for her.
Your case is a tragic exception. My cases were the rule. Nobody expected anything better, unless you had a physician in the family, had access to priviliged clinics or paid for services under the table.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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Post #217,185
8/3/05 9:45:19 AM
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Ah, but isn't getting more if you pay more your ideal?
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #217,270
8/3/05 3:08:18 PM
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Yes, when it's properly labeled as such
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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