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New Just for the record.
Hillary is the shizz! If she were a man, no one would be bagging on her, they would say she is a fine person who has put up with a lot, who is knowledgeable, and hardworking.

I'm fricking tired of the double standard that is set re: ambitious men v. ambitious women. Hillary has an agenda = bull dike frigid conniving bitch.

That dog don't hunt with me.

You don't hear people saying mean things about Karl Rove along those lines. You hear people say,"He's the Man who really runs the Country....the real Power behind the President" Blah, Blah, Blah.

Men, suck up your balls and get a clue. There is an intelligent, determined and prepared woman who is ready to help this nation move to the next level...where we belong...and get us the hell out of the shit hole that we are sliding into.

So grow up, take a look from a different perspective once in a while and quit feeling like your masculinity is at stake. She ain't gonna castrate you. If anything, you'll feel more like a man because you will still have a job, you will have health benefits for your family and your standard of living will improve. Oh yeah, and quite possibly, you can stand tall and be proud of our country again because we have a leader who doesn't embarrass the hell out of us like the assclown we have now.

Kiss a piece of my ass,
Amy


"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New and she would make the trains run on time, yeah right
its not because she is a woman. I would rather have a gabbling chronic (like we do now) in the whitehouse than a person whose idea of justice is
create an enemies list that paled nixon
maddogs her employees
cant distinquish between government property and personal
carries a grudge that would make reagan's grudges look mild
use the fbi, cia, irs for personal vengence as opposed to pushing disliked government policy
we have an emperor now, dont want to trade it for a monarchy.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Man, you gotta stop listening to Faux News.
Most of what you ranted about is merely RW accusations. Or maybe you can point me to the "proof" that the Clintons took off with WH property (they didn't). And WTF is this? "use the fbi, cia, irs for personal vengence as opposed to pushing disliked government policy" Damn man, you're confusing the current crop w/the previous one.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New who used Anthony Pelicano as their personal punch?
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Oh Puhhhhhleeeezzzzzzz
we have an emperor now, dont want to trade it for a monarchy.


An emperor is a monarch. What is the diff?

Right now, we have tax cuts for the rich, corporate welfare, raping of natural resources, dependence on foreign oil, involvement in a scam war, entitlement programs that are teetering towards bankruptcy,a federal budget deficit in the trillions when we had a surplus when the guy took office.

And you want to talk about chips on shoulders? Dubya's whole existence is to prove to Daddy and Mommy that he ain't no dumbass. The whole point to Iraq was to shove Saddam down Daddy's throat and say "How 'bout them apples, Paw! I did what YOU couldn't do! Uh Huh Uh Huh, look at my bad self!"

So don't tell me that Hillary is the evil spawn Debbil Skank Woman. I won't buy it. Georgie is much more evil because he is brainwashing millions of people with his smooth, bible thumping, flag waving bullshit. That is exactly what Satan would do....a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Beware. BEWARE!!! Bush is the Anti Christ!!!!

Pray for Peace!
Amy


"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New point by point
"we have an emperor now, dont want to trade it for a monarchy"
emperor's have a vested interest in maintaining the empire, a monarchy only wants to maintain themselves

"Right now, we have tax cuts for the rich" and we are taking in more tax revenue than before

"corporate welfare," can you say Tyson foods or creating national parks over dirt that threatened your buddy the Sultan.

'raping of natural resources," people are natural resources too (see bosnia et al)

"dependence on foreign oil" clintons refused to look for domestic oil increasing foreign dependence

"involvement in a scam war" bombing aspirin factories ring a bell? enabling muslims to take over slavic lands?

"entitlement programs that are teetering towards bankruptcy" by definition entitlement programs are teetering towards bankruptcy because they must be funded annually. Who takes credit for ending "welfare as we know it" twasnt bush and co

"federal budget deficit in the trillions when we had a surplus when the guy took office" we had a surplus? Not in any way that normal people define surplus, we were in less of a deficit when old bill was in office, that I grant.

"And you want to talk about chips on shoulders? Dubya's whole existence is to prove to Daddy and Mommy that he ain't no dumbass. The whole point to Iraq was to shove Saddam down Daddy's throat and say "How 'bout them apples, Paw! I did what YOU couldn't do! Uh Huh Uh Huh, look at my bad self!" no he faked evidence to get on with a war that was inevitable, the cost of containment vs the cost of invasion. The invasion went well but exit strategy and occupation suffered from extremely poor planning. Brer Bill would have done better because he would have relied on more traditional military methods.

Difference is Bush is a squirrel Skank is a rabid squirrel

thanx,
bill






Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New /me raises hand
"corporate welfare," can you say Tyson foods or creating national parks over dirt that threatened your buddy the Sultan.

"involvement in a scam war" bombing aspirin factories ring a bell? enabling muslims to take over slavic lands?


OK, now I get it. This is race/religion thing with you. It all becomes clear....






(Oh, and PS...What Sultan is it that I/we are supposed to be buddies with?)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New brunei, specifically ending a contract for mining in utah
that specifically would have impacted said Sultans income flow. Didnt you keep track? :-) for the record I have voted for dems in the past, Alabama governor for pres in point of fact :-)
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Would that Alabama governor happen to be named Wallace?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New /me makes whistling sound while gazing elsewhere
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Hardly any points. Why can't you STOP believing that drivel?
BOxley's political "thoughts", direct from Rupert Murdoch's arse to Bill's mouth:
"we have an emperor now, dont want to trade it for a monarchy"
emperor's have a vested interest in maintaining the empire, a monarchy only wants to maintain themselves
First: Words only end in apostrophe-s IN THE GENITIVE. And the genitive IS NOT THE SAME as plural. How FUCKING hard can that be to understand?!? I submit that all you people who regularly fuck up such a simple thing are JUST PLAIN STOOPID. And as such, you should of course shut the fuck up and realize that, stupid as you are, you are probably wrong whenever you disagree with anybody. Like you are now, Bill.

Second: Where the fuck is your proof of that silly little thesis? I could -- in fact, I will! -- just as well spout my own little variation on it: "Monarchs have a vested interest in maintaining the monarchy; an imperial dynasty only wants to maintain themselves". There, the exact opposite of yours -- but with exactly as much proof as you supplied! So why, *exactly*, are we supposed to believe your version and not mine, again?


'raping of natural resources," people are natural resources too (see bosnia et al)
Can't you FUCKING learn to write intelligibly?!? What the HELL is that gibber-de-gook supposed to mean??? (Oh, and it's "see bosnia etc". The rule is really rather simple: People, "et al"; anything else [i.e, things], "etc". Is it too fucking much to ask that you start posting in English?)


"involvement in a scam war" bombing aspirin factories ring a bell? enabling muslims to take over slavic lands?
If it's Sudan, Somalia, or whichever African country it was that your "aspirin factory" is referring to, then there ARE NO "slavic lands" there. If, OTOH, you're still talking about Bosnia (or have you moved on to Kosovo? Fuck knows, with your ultra-confused prose!), those muslims ARE SLAVIC muslims, you fucking nitwit!


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New gee, is Rupert your dad? must be, you look like him
and show the same filial devotion as his other offspring
"'raping of natural resources," people are natural resources too (see bosnia et al)" look up snide remark in your thesaurus fuckwad


"those muslims ARE SLAVIC muslims" nice try but turks living in fucking albania are not slavic, any more than turks living in fucking hamberg are teutonic larn yer fucking history.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New It matters if it is my Dad you're fellating,or someone else?
Bill gibbers on:
and show the same filial devotion as [Rupert Murdoch's] other offspring
If I read more tabloids, I'd probably know WTF you're gibbering about. As it is, I neither know nor care.


"'raping of natural resources," people are natural resources too (see bosnia et al)" look up snide remark in your thesaurus fuckwad
Yeah, well, sarcasm usually works better if it's written coherently enough for the intended audience to understand at least *some* of it, ya frigging numbskull.


"those muslims ARE SLAVIC muslims" nice try but turks living in fucking albania are not slavic, any more than turks living in fucking hamberg are teutonic larn yer fucking history.
1) Aha, so it wasn't Bosnia you were talking about, but... Uh, "albania"... Did you mean Kosovo? And HOW THE FUCK was any innocent reader of your previous braindead diatribes supposed to figger that out?!? Anybody bombed a lot of "aspirin factories" in *Kosovo*???

2) It wasn't Albanians living in Albania that the Serbs were bombed by the West for attacking, but ethnic Albanians living in... Uhm, *Kosovo* -- the southern part of Serbia, yes -- and they weren't "conquering Slavic lands", because they'd already BEEN LIVING THERE FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. Feh -- "larn yer fucking history", indeed!

3) "Turks"? "Turks"?!? The Skipetar are no more Turkish than you or I, AFAIK -- from all accounts, they're about as European as the Basque; i.e, quite a bit "MORE European" than you or I.

4) HambUrg, you fricking Anal Phabetic!


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New :-) yer slipping, does juanita broderick ring a bell?
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Nope. Well, maybe, but none of mine anyway.
New Rebuttal
"emperor's have a vested interest in maintaining the empire, a monarchy only wants to maintain themselves"
Hmmm...Napoleon seemed a little self-absorbed/self-serving to me.

"we are taking in more tax revenue than before"
Uh, yeah, from the lower and middle class.

"can you say Tyson foods or creating national parks over dirt that threatened your buddy the Sultan."

The Tyson case is not relevant. And The Sultan is not my buddy. That is merely a case of keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer.

"raping of natural resources"
Stick to the subject, Box. We are talking domestic natural resources here. See also below.

"clintons refused to look for domestic oil increasing foreign dependence"
How much was a barrel of crude during Clinton admin? Besides, he wasn't looking for oil, kind sir....

[The Clinton Administration has taken] action on:
*Successfully negotiated the Kyoto Protocol, which sets strong, realistic targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and establishes flexible, market-based mechanisms to achieve them as cost-effectively as possible.
* Extended the tax credits for wind and biomass energy production through 2001.
* Set a goal of tripling our use of bioenergy and bioproducts by 2010.
* Increased research funding to more than $1.7 billion in FY 2000 to provide a sound scientific understanding of both the human and natural forces that influence the Earth\ufffds climate system.
* Issued new energy efficiency standards for home appliances that will save consumers money and reduce emissions of greenhouse gases.
* Directed federal agencies to reduce energy use in buildings 35 percent by 2010, reducing annual greenhouse gas emissions by the equivalent of taking 1.7 million cars off the road and saving taxpayers over $750 million a year.


"bombing aspirin factories ring a bell? enabling muslims to take over slavic lands?"

Who gives a crap about an aspirin factory. Bush invaded a whole country on weaker evidence than Bill's on the above. And Bill paid them back for their trouble. Besides, how many Americans died....zip.

part deux: "It is finally clear to most historians and pundits that 1992-5 was essentially a war of aggression pursued by the Serbs and the Bosnian Serbs upon the peaceful, sovereign, and multiethnic nation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and one in which the Croats connived for territorial gain." From Wikipedia. Something had to be done and it was fully supported by the UN community.
The war in Iraq, clearly, is not.

"he {Bush}faked evidence to get on with a war that was inevitable, the cost of containment vs the cost of invasion. The invasion went well but exit strategy and occupation suffered from extremely poor planning. Brer Bill would have done better because he would have relied on more traditional military methods.

HA!

Shrub is an anencephalic squirrel, Hillary is a brainiac.

Peace, my friend :)
Amy



"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New Correction for you
We are actually taking in more money from the upper class than ever before. Their tax rate has gone down, but our current distorted economic system is diverting so much extra money their way that they are paying more dollars.

If trickle-down worked this might be good news for the rest of us. But it never has and there is no evidence that it every will.

That's the short version, for the extremely long version I highly recommend Wealth and Democracy.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I don't care about Hillary's gender
I first got disgusted with her when I saw her mess of a national healthcare proposal. Remember that I'm from Canada and am for national healthcare. I was against her attempt to try to micromanage everything in great detail from the top. It didn't pass, but if it had I am firmly convinced that it would have been a disaster. (As it was its lasting effect was to draw attention to the fact that HMOs are cheaper than the alternatives, and look how good that has been.)

Since then she has consistently reinforced my bad opinion of her. I won't criticize her for being for the Iraq war because virtually everyone else was at the same time (though that did dissapoint me), but for instance WTF is she doing right now grandstanding about the fact that Grand Theft Auto has deleted pornographic scenes?

Oh, I'm sure that the Republicans are likely to come up with a candidate who I like less. (There is an outside chance that they could come up with one whom I like more, John McCain for instance.) However I'll have trouble mounting even the tepid support for Hillary that I managed for Kerry.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New ROFL.
It didn't pass, but if it had I am firmly convinced that it would have been a disaster.

As opposed to the rousing success the current crap is? 1 in 4 kids w/out healthcare is better? Come on now, be honest. The biggest reason you didn't like her plan was that it aimed to impoverish physicians, right?
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New No, because it was beaurocratic crap.
Timeline for you. Her proposal was in the early 90s. At that time my wife and I were at grad school and had no idea that she would later try to become a doctor.

I wound up opposing the plan without any vested interest in it.

I agree that what we have now is terrible. But we still have a blank legislative slate on which someone can try the Canadian legislative model. (Guarantee transfer payments to any state that implements universal healthcare, let the states figure out how they want to do it. Took the Canadian provinces 5 years to finish figuring that one out.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Why you can't leave it to the states.
A part of any sane healthcare plan will, of necessity, include dramatically reducing physician salaries. If you start that on a state-by-state basis, the poorest clinicians will end up working in the states that try to provide healthcare to all its people. That'll mean a lower level of healthcare in that/those states. Then, the American Megalomaniac Association will spend a bunch of money on scare ads (remember those from before) to convince the Sheeple that the problem is socialized medicine. This will effectively kill any attempt at reform.

No sir, this cannot be left to the states. It must be a federal program period. And, if we are going to be able to afford it, clinicians and hospitals are going to have to be impoverished.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Swell.
And with no incentive to enter a gruelling profession with tremendous responsibilities OF COURSE we will end up with sufficient trained staff to provide high quality medical care.

Idiot.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Fuck you.
How many fucking hospitals have you worked in? How many fucking clinicians have you known? WTF do you know about any of this?

[And another thing]
You've obviously bought in to the capitalist view of everything. No one could possibly go into medicine for altruistic reasons could they? Fuck-wad idiot. And which would you rather have work on your sorry ass? The one in it for the bucks or the one in it to help you.

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Expand Edited by mmoffitt July 18, 2005, 03:46:27 PM EDT
Expand Edited by mmoffitt July 18, 2005, 03:47:44 PM EDT
New You could say that about any profession
We just had that discussion about programmers. All else being equal, the ones who went into it for the money aren't typically aren't as good as the ones who love it. Problem is if there's no money in it, lots of people who could be good won't see it as worth the effort. The question is how to get the ones who love it, and still compensate them fairly.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Fairly?
Think about the doctor/soldier thing for a moment.

If you're a doctor, and I'm the customer, and you fuck up, I die. You get to have another go with another customer.

If you're a soldier, and I'm the "customer", and you fuck up, you die. You get on the news. Perhaps.

Think on.



Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Those going into soldiering often don't have better options
No, not always. But often enough that we're not talking about the same applicant pool. And yes, I was enlisted; and no I didn't have better options available. When you talk about fair compensation, you have to look at qualifications as well as consequences.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New What about the officers?
They seem to be getting themselves killed in Iraq just as easily as the squaddies. And you sure as shit don't get into Sandhurst for being a thickie.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New They get paid quite a bit better
[link|http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp|http://www.militaryf...ary_pay_scale.asp]

No, it doesn't look like a ton of money. But if you consider the free 4-year education while in ROTC as a signing bonus ...
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Not necessarily
If you ask a teacher why they went into teaching, they sure as shit don't say it is for the money. And there are lots of very good teachers out there.

But if you ask a doctor why they chose their profession,well, you get many different responses.
Usually, " I could make a damn nice living looking up women's twats" or " Colons have always fascinated me and I realized there is a niche market with the boomers aging and all."

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New Priorities
We don't care fuck-all about education. Wait, we don't care fuck-all about educating other people's kids. So there is no money in it. The only people who go into teaching do it because they love it. Then we pay them shit and burn them out. Except for the lucky few who end up at private schools.

But fixing the damage we do to ourselves with the lifestyles we don't want to fix? That's worth some coin. So medicine also attracts the ones just looking for the money. But since the serious dough is in specialization, that's what everyone does.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New And who the hell is gonna pay for the education?
Who is going to pay for malpractice insurance? As overblown as that is, it still COSTS. Like it or not, the price of a doctor's education is an investment. 'Impoverish' hospitals clinics, and clinicians, and you'll get what you pay for.
And which would you rather have work on your sorry ass? The one in it for the bucks or the one in it to help you.

Somebody that knows what they are doing. Someone educated beyond the Matchbook School of Medical Professionals. Unless of course, you are also going to say all education should be 'free'. Hell we've been impoverishing teachers for years, requiring huge educational investments for low salaried jobs, staffed by people who do it for love. THAT'S worked out well, hasn't it? I'm sure we'd get folk that do it for love. Enough of them? FUCK no.

Moron.

As to doctors, nurses, and clinicians, well, you know fuck-all about me, my friends, OR relatives. I do know that your cloud-cuckoo ideas simply DO NOT WORK in the real world. Gonna get 'the government' to pay? Who pays the government? Gonna rape business? Then business will go elsewhere for dollars. Impoverish hospitals and clinicians in order to get universal health care? If it happens, I wanna be there to laugh when you complain about bad care causing you or your loved ones damages.

Guess what, moderation+capitalism WORKS. Or problems stem from extremist positions. You would trade one nightmare for another. Count me out.



[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New next time mikey gets sick, send him to the va
hopefully they will see him before the undertaker does.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Yet another example of "supporting our troops"
The VA system is underfunded. [link|http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Jul/20050717News012.asp|http://www.columbiat...050717News012.asp]

According to this administration, objecting to sending our soldiers into harms way is not supporting them, while not taking care of them once they are sick and/or injured is. This is a definition of "support" that I cannot agree with.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Expand Edited by ben_tilly July 18, 2005, 04:25:14 PM EDT
New Ping-pong policy-making...?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You said it!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New We manage alright over here...
...and our doctors are not paid anywhere near as much as yours. They don't starve, however :-)

The malpractice insurance is, to my eyes, a symptom of an excessively litigious society where everyone needs compensation for everything and there's always someone to blame.

Moral of this tale?

It *can* be done. It *has* been done. It'll probably never be feasible in the USA, because there's an entire industry based around things NOT being like they are in the UK, and too many people with money and influence stand to lose some of that.



Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Litigious fucks.
Again, no-one is ever at fault here. There are never risks to doing anything - if there's a problem that results from ANY action, sue! It's like playing the lottery.

Entirely removing the ability to sue is also a problem (If my surgeon is drunk, or performs the wrong procedure, etc. and hurts me, I sure as hell want the right to sue the bastard).

It'll all end in disaster. Hell, it IS a disaster.



Of course, malpractice insurance is not the only problem - I don't mean to imply that it is.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New If your hypothetical MD does as you say,
you'll be damned lucky if you win. Never underestimate the power of the AMA. And because we've embraced your idiotic "it's a business" viewpoint, it makes it even more unlikely that your wrong-doing hypothetical clinician will ever be disciplined and the argument against any real punishment is one you would support! "We have so much invested in this person's medical education, we, as a society cannot afford to scrap it."

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New So you're against the Physician's union?
As far as 'it's a business' - well, when you have to pay that much to become a doctor, guess what? The money has to come from somewhere. Like the physician, maybe? Oh, no - the 'government can pay'. Ignoring where the money comes from initially, of course. And of course, huge centralized planning facilities must be more efficient and less corrupt than any other solution. THAT's why the States can't be trusted with such a task - only A Central Planning Committee could do it the way it should be - right?

And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies.

Think, man, think! I expected better from you. Someone who holds such idiotic ideas MUST be have gotten at least a few decent ideas on how to defend them by now!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Huh?
And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies.


It's really much simpler than that. It's just two fat cat capitalists going after the same dollars.

BTW, there are plenty of opportunities for Med School expenses to be paid back in full by serving in underserved areas. Of course, most physicians (not all to be sure, but the vast majority of them) are money hungry fascists who will not willingly give anything to anyone, so most don't take advantage of these programs.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Yeah. Right.
"
And of course, physicians are paying big bucks to insurers NOT because malpractice abuse is a big threat to them, but instead because, out of the goodness of thier hearts, they want to help the poor, failing insurance companies."
"It's really much simpler than that. It's just two fat cat capitalists going after the same dollars."

Nice argument. It's what I'm coming to expect, here. So - insurance isn't needed, because the AMA protects the doctors, but doctors are paying the insurers because doctors are 'fat cat capitalists', eh? I wasn't aware that 'fat cat capitalists' were so prone to throwing money away unnecessarily. And tell me, pray - these 'programs' that doctors can take advantage of to pay off their expenses for both school and liability - they are, of course, more than enough to supply the country with medical help, no? Got ANY figures? No? Well, what's your answer (since you want to IMPOVERISH - your word - the medical community) then? Let's see, there aren't enough to do it for love, there shouldn't be any monetary incentive (if you have your way), and still you think there should be plenty of doctors willing to shoulder the huge resonsibility of preserving human life. Riiiiight. The only way YOUR way would work would be to FORCE people to be doctors. Just think of the care you'd get then, eh?

Once again, you take the worst stereotypes you can imagine (doctors that 'won't willingly give anything to anybody' 'fat cat capitalists' 'money hungry facists', etc, etc), extrapolate those qualities to the entire set, and then try and use that as a 'rationalization' for depriving everybody in the group. Your straw men live in whole straw villages, apparently.

For the record, when I was poor, I had an orthopedic surgeon write off a full orthopedic reconstruction, including anasthesiology, hospital stay, EVERYTHING - without it ever going to collections or being marked on my credit report. I've had doctors give me free treatment including antibiotics and drugs, too, when I couldn't pay.

Those BASTARDS. Those money-grubbing capitalist fascist BASTARDS. How DARE they give the poor free care? And of course, the drain on finances for hospitals that DON'T throw the poor into the street because they can't pay is just imaginary. After all, thats the MO for hospitals, right? We'll just ignore the care my dirt poor, uninsured buddy with MS gets, the dental care my other friends have recieved when they didn't have a pot to piss in (true, just extractions, but still), and all the other things those evil capitalistic bastards do when they can. In short, you are FULL OF IT.

You apparently only have simplistic, poorly thought out arguments fuelled by your hatred of the extreme ends of capitalism. If you are a typical 'communist', it's no wonder communism is a laughingstock.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New You can't even fucking read, can you skippy?
Once again, you take the worst stereotypes you can imagine (doctors that 'won't willingly give anything to anybody' 'fat cat capitalists' 'money hungry facists', etc, etc), extrapolate those qualities to the entire set,...

The entire set? Here's me, in my own words (emphasis added because you cannot fucking read for content):

Of course, most physicians (not all to be sure, but the vast majority of them)

Jesus, man, if I couldn't read any better than that I think I'd remember the old adage that "'Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" a little more clearly.

My whole fucking point is, (and I realize that you are at a disadvantage as you have the comprehensive abilities of a gnat), that good medical care is not available only when obscenely high monetary rewards are offered. You're fucking arguing my point and calling me an idiot! You are too much, really.


bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Ok, cretin.
Just because you make a disclaimer that some doctors may be ok, then go on to call most of them fascists, pigs, etc, etc don't cut it, pinhead. I don't lead THAT charmed a life that I can believe that (based on the doctors and med-staf I KNOW and am RELATED TO) 'most physicians' are greedy shits out to soak people. If that's what floats your boat, bubby, then by all means hallucinate away. You can live in your little black-and-white fantasy world where 'impoverishing clinicians' is the right thing to do, but like I said, I want to be there to laugh when you complain about the state of medical care if even a FRACTION of your brain-dead ideas are ever put into place.

You didn't say anything moderate, you fucking asshole. You weren't arguing specifically against obscenely high medical rates - you were arguing to IMPOVERISH (remember that word? No? Syphilis kick in again?) medical workers. Then you tried to insist that doctors aren't REALLY under financial pressure, that the AMA protected them from any liability, and that they can pay off all expenses by going to underserved areas to practice.

In closing, you moronic get of a diseased babboon - you haven't managed to actually SAY anything that makes any kind of point, or even makes any SENSE, at all!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Again, you mislead.
Impoverish physicians != Impoverish all medical workers. HTH, pinhead.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New _I_ mislead?
You tell me I can't read when you can't even decipher what you wrote?

Here:
"And, if we are going to be able to afford it, clinicians and hospitals are going to have to be impoverished."


cli\ufffdni\ufffdcian Pronunciation Key (kl-nshn) n.

  1. A health professional, such as a physician, psychiatrist, psychologist, or nurse, involved in clinical practice, as distinguished from one specializing in research.

  2. A health professional who practices at a clinic.


Why do I keep having to throw the dictionary at you?
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Free clue, knucklefuckers.
Take this to Politics.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New But I'm having too much fun HERE!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Crap. I c. My bad.
I had this argument with a few physicians my wife works with that we had at a party a couple of years ago. I've always refused to call a physician "doctor" and was arguing with the MDs that they were clinicians, not doctors; for, doctors wrote and defended dissertations and mds did not. After quite a few beers and a visit to m-w.com, they all agreed that "clinician" fit them better than "doctor". So, when I say "clinician" I mean "physician". One of them even introduces himself as "Clinician X" to patients in the ER now. ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New OK
I still say the problem isn't greedy doctors. Or hospitals, for that matter.

It's the goddamned insurance companies, and their partners in 'crime', the lawyers.

I've worked in the insurance industry in one capacity or another for the last 23 years; the profit margins are obscene, regulation is minimal, and government falls all over itself to make insurance mandatory.

It's not just MDs of course, the insurance industry infects everything.







Having said that, one of the reasons I'm happy with my current job is that my current employer is one of the most moral insurers I've ever worked for - they allow employees a say in company policies, the CEO has informal chat sessions with low-level employees in order to get an idea about problems, and they don't rape their customers. Our economic landscape might be a LOT better if more companies were like this one. I plan to stay here a long time; I don't feel dirty workng here. I only hope they keep it up as they grow.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Amen, with caveat.
The insurance industry in this country is an outright scam. It is a scam that helps feed the clinicians the excessive salaries they demand. The truth is that the amounts paid out in malpractice claims have remained almost constant, yet the premiums have escalated fairly dramatically in some states - but not all.

The reason you hear all this gnashing of teeth concerning malpractice and tort lawyers is that clinicians here absolutely hate to give up anything.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New The escalation of premiums is tied to the stock market
By law insurance companies have to keep specified cash reserves. They keep a lot of that as stock. If the stock market does well the extra income lets them charge smaller premiums. If it does poorly, well...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I know about Reserve requirements, but,
and investments by insurance companies. But that is clearly not the only thing driving up premiums.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New You may want to look into this further
Because the empirical data actually does corrolate quite nicely to market returns.

Had to do that homework because of the current noise in PA. Argument was for tort reform. However, litigation was down and awards were down in a period where premiums were going through the roof. What changed? The stock market.

Sure there may be other factors. But they are minor in comparison.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Excellent point.
The real driver for higher premiums is insurance company profit. Which, as you and Ben rightly point out, is tied to market returns. It's been a while since I worked for an HMO (2000), but back then - and I realize this is a state issue - we had to have 6 weeks of claims in reserve. For all my ranting, I realize that physician salaries, while excessive, are not going to solve the problem. Ultimately, I think my old CFO put his finger on it when he said, "The real problem with healthcare is that we spend 80% of the money we spend on healthcare in our last two months of life. If people could just accept that dying is a consequence of being born, we could save a ton of money."
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New 80 % of deaths occur in hospitals - let's tear 'em all down!
Mike Moffs it:
Ultimately, I think my old CFO put his finger on it when he said, "The real problem with healthcare is that we spend 80% of the money we spend on healthcare in our last two months of life. If people could just accept that dying is a consequence of being born, we could save a ton of money."
I think I see what you (and he) *mean*... But I'm not quite sure that that is what you (and he) are *saying*, exactly.

I mean, the money we spend on healthcare gets spent *when we are ill* -- when the heck *else* would you spend it? And when we are ill is also, logically and inevitably, when we are liable to die -- so all too often it turns out that the period we spent spending money on healthcare also was our last. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try at all to treat illnesses that are in principle treatable, now does it?

Yes, yes, I know you were really talking about ultimately futile efforts to prolong the very last days of a life that is actually already all but over -- but the way you (or your old CFO) put it, it *sounds* a bit like the fallacy in my "Subject:" line.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New No, they're talking about terminal cases
Remember Terry what's-er-name? That's the people we're talking about. Doctors aren't allowed to ask the question, "But if we keep the heart beating, is that really 'alive'?" I've heard people demand heroic measures, "just to have one more day with him." If even in your most optimistic projections you can't see more than a couple of days or weeks, how about making them comfortable? Nope, gotta prolong that life. Fight to the bitter end. And it will be bitter.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New A) Schiavo. B) Yeah, I know. C) Yup, as Fernet-Branca grappa
D) But still, *the way he put it* made it *sound* like it would also include cases a la "Dang, it was *this* close that it would all just have been a bad memeory for him to tell his grandkids forty years from now". The ones where it becomes clear only afterwards that the period when one spent all that dough turned out to be ones last. (For *those* cases, "most of what we spend is at the end!" *is* a fallacy pretty much like my "shut down the hospitals!" joke[let].) Sure, I know that wasn't what he *meant* to talk about... But his ex-CFO happened to *do* so.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New A Flash of Brilliance!
I know! We don't need to socialized medical care....we need socialized insurance!!! Those are the whores! Those are the bastards who are jacking up health care costs. HMO's are not the answer. They suck. I have worked too long building a relationship with my healthcare providers to have some dickhead behind a desk who couldn't give a shit about me or my family tell me that I have to switch providers. I should be able to see who I want, when I want. I am an educated person.

Yes, I know, not the norm, but, damn it, let's do what is right and have free healthcare for children up until the age of 18. Healthy kids = healthy adults!

Teach 'em while they are young to be active participants in their own destiny. Knowledge is power and by God, Doctors aren't God. It is a partnership and an exchange of information. Teach people to take ownership and responsibility for their lives. Wow! What a concept! Think of the Domino Effect!

Let me put my money in an HSA and let the govmint match my contribs...all tax free. By phasing in such a plan, and growing healthier Citizens of the USA, over a period of 10 years or so (?) the plan should begin to pay for itself (from less crack babies, less birth defects, less drain on society in the future,etc, etc.)

Ok, so I may not know the timeline exactly, but you get the drift.

Feels good to finally get this out somewhere. Have been keeping this bottled up for too damn long.

Have at it, boys.

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New Aside: Know what the difference between God and an MD is?
God doesn't think he's an MD.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Good one!

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New Wanna fix that habit they have?
Get up off your knees (and bring along a Nurse who ever Ever! utters.. "Doctor says that ___" - omitting the The in front, or a name behind)

HtH
New Socialized insurance is what Canada has :-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Study this more I will, yessssssssss.
If Canada can do it, WE can do it better. (Hitchin' up our collective britches and hockin' a loogie at ye olde spittoone)

:-P

Peace, Pardner!
Amy


(Yes, I know, I mixed my references, Yoda/Wild, Wild, West...but, hey, it was funny! Can't you see the little guy in chaps and spurs and a little ten gallon hat with his pointy green ears sticking out? LOL!!! Fastest lightsabre in the West!)

a.

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New Isn't there a bit of Gollum in there too, yessssssssss? :-)
New Wellll, it should have been more of a yeeeeeeeees.
intonation up, then down.

(winky winky, smile)

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

New "Patient, what would you like me to prescribe?"
A doctor that comes to work drink.

A hyfrecator used without local anestesia.

Leaving half-pint container for peeing for a recovering lad who can't get up, overnight.

Feeding a woman thyroid hormones after mis-diagnosing hypotherios. For two years.

Stuffing a mononucleosis patient with penicillin, to which he is violently allergic. For two weeks.

Beds in corridors being preferable to beds in wards because there, the nurses at least pass you by.

Nurse aides who don't even pretend to help the patient - "She is too heavy, we'd rupture ourself. And she has relatives who come twice daily anyway".

Stench in hospital that litrally carries you off your feet.


Enough?

Yes, I bought the capitalist view of medicine. Try not paying your doctors and nurses, you'll get no fucking doctors no matter what your goddamn law says.




------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Only the best for me ;-) signed The patient Patient
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New And you think none of that happens when you pay them?
Let me tell you of one of my first experiences with how great the care is you receive when physicians are paid obscene salaries.

I was working as Lab Assistant at a reference medical lab in Inglewood. Among other things, we'd do pregnancy tests for physician offices around the city. We get this one from a posh office in Marina Del Rey. Okay, so we send back a titer that estimates about 2 months pregnant. New physician starts working at the office. The patient comes back in to see him and schedule an abortion. He looks at the chart and decides D & C. So, she's there on the table when she dies - bled out - the physician couldn't get all the tissue so he kept scrapping and vacuuming until he ripped her uterus lose and she bled to death on his table. Why did this happen? Because the vaunted, well paid physician failed to notice that our test had been done 4 months prior. So, the patient was not 8 weeks pregnant, but 24 weeks pregnant. That's what the glorious medical review board found as well. His penance for killing this young girl? Oh, well, you'll have to work in a free clinic for 12 months you bad boy.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Expand Edited by mmoffitt July 22, 2005, 11:36:43 AM EDT
New And another
I almost bled to death on an ER gurney, where I was left to sit for three hours before anybody even came to check me out. When I finally got out of the OR, I was stuck in a double room with a guy who's appendix had burst - he had repeatedly told his doctor, "I have appendicitis, do something about it NOW," and the doctor kept telling him, "No you don't, go home."

My wife was told, alternately, that she had scabies/allergic reaction/something else for about five years before a doctor finally diagnosed her as having pernio.

We have insurance. We pay our bills. We still get screwed. Yes, doctors should get paid. But the system does need to be reigned in and controlled, especially the insurance company side. Malpractice should stand, but non-compensatory (pain + suffering, etc.) damages should be capped as a multiplier of the compensatory judgement.

Get the damn system working for the PEOPLE again, not for the doctors/pharmaceutical/insurance companies.
apt-get install godlike-powers
New Agreed.
Getting the system working for the people is what's needed.

That said, I find it a pity that today in 2005 we must still (as Jesse Jackson noted in his 1984 speech to the Democratic Convention) "Dream about doctors [physicians] more concerned with public health than personal wealth."
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Inconsistent with Puritannical roots.___(really!) Sorry.
Muricans adore the Trumps/Billys - the Winner-take-All [no matter How Won].
(Is this not evident without 42 links?)

THAT is our ethos and our Actual 'God'-thing and no amount of bloodless wrangling, caucusi and watered-down 'arrangements' can go against That Grain. Not if history (or herstory) are any guide whatsoever.

I. See. Blood.
(if indeed, there are -???- more than a handful left about, with the requisite Guts.)




Did I mention - We're Fucked? - by popular collaboration.
New The above crap happened to 4 people
over the space of 15 years. Not something I heard or saw in the hospital. If I'd start telling you the things I saw in the hospital, your hair would stand on end, for days. Like ninty-year-old "babushka" dying of hunger in the filth of her own excrements because she had no relatives to care for her.

Your case is a tragic exception. My cases were the rule. Nobody expected anything better, unless you had a physician in the family, had access to priviliged clinics or paid for services under the table.


------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Ah, but isn't getting more if you pay more your ideal?
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Yes, when it's properly labeled as such

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Soldiers get paid a lot less.
And they're paid to risk their lives.

It's not *always* about the money.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New People made that argument when Canada did it
Oddly enough, things didn't work out that way.

You can assert it all you like, but assertions do not make proof. I think you're wrong, you think that I'm an idiot, and I'm perfectly happy leaving things in that state.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Er, I don't think you're an idiot.
And I didn't mean to imply that. You're out on the west coast now I think. Ask some physicians what they think of Kaiser. The thing is, I believe (from my very limited experience with people from Canada) that there is a sense of community present there that is lacking to a great extent here. That may have mitigated clinician flight.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New I think I've pointed this out before
By specialty, take home salaries in Canada are not far from what they are in the USA. The two big differences from the point of view of a doctor are the much reduced litigation risk in Canada, and in Canada doctors don't have to deal with nearly as much paperwork as in the USA. The biggest single difference from the point of view of the medical system is that there are very different ratios of people in different specialties. (IIRC about 30% of US doctors are general practitioners vs about 70% in Canada.)

There is no comparison between how single payer works in Canada, and an HMO from hell like Kaiser. The fact that you think there is tells me that you know even less about Canada than you think you do.

Incidentally Canada as a whole has no sense of national identity (other than "we are not the USA"), and my experience with both countries leads me to believe that you get about as much sense of community in a small US city as in a Canadian city of the same size. I don't see "a sense of community" as a big cultural difference between the two countries.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New You misinterpretted my Kaiser question.
I asked that question because I knew physicians hated Kaiser (I worked there for a time in the laboratory). And, IME, the chief reason that physicians hate Kaiser is that Kaiser made the poor little MD's work too hard for too little money. Around here, NE Indiana, we get a few clinicians from Canada who left for the same reason: they can make a ton more money here than they can 100 miles north. In their cases, Canada's gain is our loss.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New As far as I can see I understood your point perfectly
And my point remains valid. There is no comparison between Kaiser and how things work in Canada. I repeat, the fact that you think they are comparable illustrates how little you know about Canada.

As for your example, the number of MDs who choose to move is low. Sure, there are some. However there are also some who choose to practice in Canada rather than the USA because there they reduce the hassle of liability and insurance companies. Unless you can demonstrate a trend, a few anecdotes either way are meaningless.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Where did I suggest Canada was like Kaiser?
Oh yeah, I didn't. Nice (second) try though at mischaracterizing what I said.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Try here...
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215450|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=215450]

Given context, you're indicating that we should look to Kaiser to get a sense of what physicians think about socialized medicine. What you're missing is that the main thing limiting clinician flight is that clinicians don't have a big incentive to flee Canada.

Now the plan for universal medicine that Hillary created does look like Kaiser. Which is why I object to it. But that doesn't resemble at all how Canada works.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I didn't read it that way.
I didn't read it as a implying that Kaiser was somehow similar to Canada's system. I read it as an aside. But to be clearer, there should have been some parentheses or a separate paragraph in there somewhere, I think.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I think he was *contrasting* Kaiser to (his image of) Canada
New It sure doesn't look like that to me
It looks to me like he thinks they are similar, except that Canada has more of a sense of community which makes doctors more willing to be there.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Your hypothesis has the weakness...
...that it doesn't square with the conclusion one can draw from the sum total of many of his other posts -- in some he criticises HMOs, and in some (others) he praises (his perception of) Canada.

Nor with what Mike himself *said* shortly after the post we're dissecting -- "I didn't mean to say they're similar", or words to that effect.

Mine lacks that weakness, in that it squares with both of the above.

But, hey, whatever floats your boat.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Isn't Canada's health system having problems now?
[link|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705|Canadian Health Care In Crisis]:

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.


30 year extrapolations obviously have problems, but it seems that Canada is having health care problems like the US and the UK (though the details differ).

Your thoughts? Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New flame forum asshole take this to politics :-)
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Part of a long-term unsustainable trend
Compared to the USA, Canada spends a smaller fraction of GDP on healthcare, covers 100%, and to the best of my knowledge provides better care overall. That doesn't look like failure to me.

However long-term trends in both countries have the cost of healthcare going up faster than inflation. That cannot be sustained indefinitely in either country.

At some point, something has to break. Healthcare cannot grow faster than inflation forever. (Neither can the cost of a university education, nor can the size of government.) But the fact that some politicans are considering privatizing pieces of the system to make government budgets easier to balance doesn't mean that public healthcare has not been a success.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I don't know how much of a disaster it would have been
But is it worse than what we have now? Hard to tell. But there are a few indicators: First, some of our largest corporations (read: contributors to the Republicans) are loudly and publicly crying that healthcare costs are killing them (which is most likely true), and that a "single payer plan" (read: nationalized healthcare, with Uncle Sam as the Single Payer) is necessary to keep them competitive. Second, the >40MM uninsured wouldn't be uninsured under that plan.

Two big plusses. Now what would make her plan such a disaster so as to negate those plusses?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New The amount of bureaucracy created...
would have guaranteed mass confusion, no savings, and tons of room for corporate lobbyists to ask Congress to manipulate rules ad nauseum.

I understand the desire to legislate a perfect solution. But when it comes to big government mandates, KISS. Her plan would have left us saddled with universal HMOs and crushing bureaucracy. In the maze of regulations there would be plenty of room to point fingers for why it failed.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New So in your mind bureaucracy == failure?
Interesting, and there is probably some merit to that viewpoint. Of course, I could scrounge around and find some bureaucracies that were a resounding success.

Yet what do we have now? "Guaranteed mass confusion, no savings, and tons of room for corporate lobbyists to ask Congress to manipulate rules ad nauseum." Yes, indeed....

So in absence of the "perfect solution", we have no solution. Dunno about you, Ben, but that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsemnent for the status quo, now does it? Hell, you're an IT guy...don't you believe in a solution that is "good enough" to solve a problem, or are you an ivory towerist that insists on all or nothing?


(I think I already know the answer...it's a rhetorical question.)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New No
But in my mind, excessive bureaucracy is a red flag for potential failure conditions.

Hillary's plan waved this flag way too boldly for my tastes.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New She's a fucking fraud, only out for #1!
WARREN: I had written an op-ed about a piece of pending bankruptcy legislation. The credit card companies have been pushing to try to tighten the bankruptcy laws, sort of like locking the doors to the hospitals and then claiming nobody's sick in America.

So, they were trying to get the bankruptcy laws constrained, constricted, so that fewer families could get in. Why? Because you can make more money if those families don't go into bankruptcy, if you're a credit lender.

And so I'd written an op-ed about how this would fall disproportionately hard on women who were raising families and who would be put in the position under this bill of trying to compete with Citibank, MasterCard, Visa, Bank One for getting alimony and child support from their ex-husbands.

Mrs. Clinton evidently saw\ufffd

MOYERS: The First Lady then.

WARREN: The First Lady. She was then First Lady. This is the 1990s. Late 1990s. Mrs. Clinton saw the piece, and I got a call from the White House. And they said Mrs. Clinton was going to be in town to give a speech in Boston and would I come and meet with her. I said, "Sure."

And so I put together all my files. I show up at the appointed place. After she's finished her speech, we're ushered into a tiny, little room somewhere in the bowels of this hotel, and just the two of us. They close the door. Mrs. Clinton sits down. We have hamburgers and french fries.

MOYERS: You tutor her.

WARREN: And she says, "Tell me about bankruptcy." And I got to tell you, I never had a smarter student. Quick, right to the heart of it. I go over the law. It's a complex law. Went over the economics. Showed her the graphs, showed her the charts. And she got it.

Within 20 minutes, she could play where the rest of it would come. Well, then that will mean this part's happened. That will mean this has happened. I said, "Yes, that's right." And at the end of the conversation, Mrs. Clinton stood up. She said, "Let's get our picture taken" which we did, and she said, "Professor Warren, we've got to stop that awful bill," referring to this bankruptcy bill that sponsored by the credit card companies.

So I left. She went back to White House, and I heard later from someone who is a White House staffer that there were skid marks in the hallways when Mrs. Clinton got back as people reversed direction on that bankruptcy bill. President\ufffd

MOYERS: That was supporting the industry. And because of her\ufffd

WARREN: President Clinton had been showing that this is another way that he could be helpful to business. It wasn't a very high visibility bill. And when Mrs. Clinton came back with a little better understanding of how it all worked, they reversed course, and they reversed course fast. And indeed, the proof is in the pudding.

The last bill that came before President Clinton was that bankruptcy bill that was passed by the House and the Senate in 2000 and he vetoed it. And in her autobiography, Mrs. Clinton took credit for that veto and she rightly should. She turned around a whole administration on the subject of bankruptcy. She got it.

MOYERS: And then?

WARREN: One of the first bills that came up after she was Senator Clinton was the bankruptcy bill. This is a bill that's like a vampire. It will not die. Right? There's a lot of money behind it, and it\ufffd

MOYERS: Bill, her husband, who vetoed\ufffd

WARREN: Her husband had vetoed it very much at her urging.

MOYERS: And?

WARREN: She voted in favor of it.

MOYERS: Why?

WARREN: As Senator Clinton, the pressures are very different. It's a well-financed industry. You know a lot of people don't realize that the industry that gave the most money to Washington over the past few years was not the oil industry, was not pharmaceuticals. It was consumer credit products. Those are the people. The credit card companies have been giving money, and they have influence.

MOYERS: And Mrs. Clinton was one of them as Senator.

WARREN: She has taken money from the groups, and more to the point, she worries about them as a constituency.
[link|http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript306_full.html|PBS, NOW with Bill Moyers, Transcript]. Please adjust your BS detector.
Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #215498 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215498|ICLRPD]
--
Steve
New On not supporting HRC for president
1. She does not particularly appeal to me personally (not that someone-you'd-like-to-have-a-beer-with should be decisive or even conspicuous in forming judgments in these matters), and the bankruptcy bill vote is a very, very black mark against her.

2. Since large segments of the population are being subtly encouraged to accept the notion that the presidency should be considered a trophy to be passed among various branches of the Bush family (you don't think Jeb will toss his helmet in the ring for 08? Just wait), the opposition would do well to avoid a candidate who could be tarred with the dynastic b(r)ush, immunizing Jeb.

3. Other large segments of the population will have been conditioned by then for sixteen years to hate and fear the candidate. If you doubt me, consider our own beloved boxter, who has been known to be sensible occasionally but who on this subject is so stupid that if he and a sandbox full of catshit were to come before me for a doctorate in political science, I'd unhesitatingly award the laurels to the kitty turds. Now multiply box by sixty million, and stir violently.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #215491 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215491|ICLRPD]
New Precisam\ufffdnte boyo..
Boxter is merely more articulate, experienced - especially in the areas he loves .. clandestine messing about with various catalogued group-grudges - to accomplish some Other secrut clan's grudge-fantasy: that of whichever clan into whose ring he's tossed his personal pair o'brass knucks.

Not yer average fleece-bearing consumer, our Box - even if Hillary has him pussy-whipped into impecunious illegibility.

No.. and Sadly.. it's just as you say:
the little and no-longer-little tykes have been getting the same individually-warped servings of raw sewage as used to be reserved for Adlai or that Uppity-Nigger\ufffd-MLK,

or them commie-pinko anti-Nam-war freaks [them thar Hippies in Boxlish, IIRC] for quite long enough to spawn legions of minimarlowes.

Unhappily, I must concur re any conceivable chance for H.
This amount of impure-shit, imploded, and via Uranium tamper enhancement - cannot be laved away by any amount of lip flapping about Truth, Honor and the Murican Way.

She is Toast - as veritably as it be True that, as we speak, many Muricans believe yet - we shoulda nuked them slopes right back to the Stone Age.
-- General BullRightCurtiss le May,
-- Redblooded Murican Take-Charge-Hero

Oh well. Nobody ever said that rapid-decline would be a fun Reality-trip down the slopes. Expecting quite little in any next..


Ashton




Now, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed.
-- General Buck Turgidson, as 'Real' as the others.
New If she is so good why is every republican in the nation
is backing her to run for the presidency? Maybe cat turds have more dicernment in the political arena than myself, but unlike you I dont eat them and declare them nutritious and tasty.
thanx
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New sure you do--you call the treat "WorldNetDaily"
New I know that sometimes there is nuggets under those rocks
I dont limit my reading material to political news rags sanctioned by my group. I dont have a group. My daily reading includes Xinhua, South China Post, Russian english dailies, Islamic News wire, Drudge, Haaretz, google news canadian India and New Zealand editions and world net daily.Occationally will read the italian, french and spanish news blogs although not fluently. I assume sir you read Salon then turn on NPR and consider yourself topped up on everything you need to know while congratulating yourself on your political acumen.
your turn :-)
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Wooooo
That is the most politely I have ever seen someone say, "Fuck off and shove your condescending attitude up your ass." And with grammar, too!
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New (it was ghost-written...)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Troll Successful!
Har Dee Har Har!!
Well Done, Mates.

Peace!
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit, what a ride!'"

.

New That's one way to try to end a thread...
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New "Try"being the operative word. Doesn't usually work, though.
Not with this bunch, Amy, not with this bunch.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Critter made me do it :-D




Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Heilige Sheisse, what a ride!'"

.

New (Never mind this one; duplicate)
This was in the wrong place; please use the other one for any responses.
Expand Edited by CRConrad July 19, 2005, 02:56:13 AM EDT
New Uh, Amy, couldja do us a favour, please? (new thread)
Created as new thread #215516 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215516|Uh, Amy, couldja do us a favour, please?]


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Clue to planet Christian...
The fact of my response was meant to be a joke on the ineffectiveness of her try. :-P

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New ObLRPD: "tilly wonders what the upper limit ... "
* tilly wonders what the upper limit on the length of a /topic is.
* tilly suspects that we are about to find out.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New In The Inquirer fortune today. More on HRK.
"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president - Hillary Clinton"

[link|http://www.theinquirer.net|The Inquirer]. I've seen that elsewhere as well.

While we're here, [link|http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006855|this] is Peggy Noonan's review of Ed Klein's "bio" of her:

The real problem with Hillary biographies is that the picture they paint, if it is true, is difficult for a normal person to believe. No one could be that bad. No one who has risen so high in American politics could possibly be that bad. To believe is to go to a dark place.

And the charges seem so at odds--so utterly at odds--with the nice, smiling woman who calls abortion a tragedy and enjoys speaking of how much she prays. This is the problem all Hillary biographers have: It's too grim to believe. To believe that her story as presented by the books so far is true is to believe that she has clung to a premeditated plan for 40 years, that she is ruthless in the pursuit both of her own ambitions and of a deep and intractable leftist political agenda. And that she found her equal in a partner sufficiently hardhearted to stick with the plan, and the secrecy, and the weirdness. It's too over the top. It seems hard to believe, not because it isn't true but because it isn't likely, usual, expected. It isn't the kind of biography we are used to in our leaders. That is her great advantage.


Unlike some other comments here, I think there's more to her position on the bankruptcy bill. Remember, she now represents New York - home to many, many big banks. But, it looks like [link|http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044|she didn't vote for the final bill]. It was 75:24 for passage in the Senate. Why didn't she vote? Dunno. On whether she was in the pocket of the bankers, there's [link|http://www.capitaleye.org/inside.asp?ID=159|this]:

The bill\ufffds supporters received an average of $36,600 from the industry during the six-year timeframe, while the measure\ufffds opponents raised an average of $20,221.

A breakdown of senators by party reveals a similar trend. The 18 Democrats who voted to pass the bill raised an average of $51,200 from the industry during the period studied, as compared to the $20,200, on average, collected by the 25 Democrats who voted to reject it.

Republican senators, all of whom voted for the bill, raised an average of $38,600 from the industry during the past three election cycles. Sen. Jim Jeffords (Vt.), an independent who caucuses with Democrats and voted to pass the bill, collected $25,200 from the industry. Democrat Hillary Clinton (N.Y.), who did not vote, raised $19,700.


Somehow I doubt that people's votes are being bought for $35-40k. Rather, they get the money because the donors support the Senator's position - not the other way around.

FWIW.

My opinion on her? I really dislike the way she gives speeches. But I don't think she's E6v6i6l.

Cheers,
Scott.
New she is neither evil nor a leftist
I call her skank as she fits the (defined at least as I know it) term. Nixon was a crook, Reagan was simplistic but at least he had an agenda he wanted to achieve. Carter did what he could but didnt achieve much. Bush one was a disaster, dont let spymasters hold high office. Instead of leading they manipulate badly. This brings us to Bill. The man who would be President and didnt mind turning into republican lite to get there. He fufilled Newt Gingrich's contract with america and was reasonably decent on domestic political issues. He was fucking clueless on foreign affairs and blithly blew up almost all of our smart munitions (bush 43 wasted the rest) I thought he should have stepped down after being caught purjoring himself and was extremely pissed that he caused the executive branch to be weakened by going to the USSC over a blowjob.Skank however is another kettle of fish. If you look at the whitehouse trsavel office scandle, Whitewater and all the shit stuff it was her pulling the strings, Bill was along for the ride.

Skank, someone who will fuck you knowing she has the clap, empty your wallet trash your house, steal your car and wreak it. Empty your bank account and declare its your fault while giving you a dumb look "whaa, wha I do?"

I didnt vote for bush 1 or 2, held my nose for Kerry last time but if she shows up[ on the ticket I will be voting to ensure she doesnt get the POTUS title which will mean 4 more years of repos.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New How do you explain that Moynahan suppored her?
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Patrick_Moynihan|He] certainly seemed to be a tough, intelligent person. Someone who wouldn't likely be fooled by a charlatan. He [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces2000/stories/hillary070899.htm|supported] her bid to take over his seat in the Senate:

Moynihan has had a rocky relationship with the administration. He described the first lady's health care plan as "fantasy" in 1993, and later he became the first Democratic senator to call for an independent counsel to investigate Whitewater. But today, after meeting with her in the one-room schoolhouse where he has written 18 books -- and wryly noting that an 1856 inventory of the schoolhouse library included "Paradise Lost" and "Pilgrim's Progress" -- he offered a short but warm endorsement of "the candidate."

"I hope she will go all the way," Moynihan said. "I mean to go all the way with her."

After the event, they walked off arm-in-arm, Moynihan looking gaunt in his blue oxford shirt and bright white pants and Clinton looking vibrant in a navy pantsuit. It was a poignant moment that suggested a changing of the guard.


I haven't been able to find what else he said or did to support her candidacy.

On travelgate and the rest, it's not clear to me how much of the commentary was factual, nor how much of it was misunderstanding how the system worked. It's also not clear that the travel office [link|http://archives.cjr.org/year/96/2/travelgate.asp|didn't have problems]. Note that there were no indictments as a result of the investigations...

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New how many times was the word vindictive used? smoke/fire
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Jesus H.
Whitewater? Clue: They fucking lost money on Whitewater. There was nothing there. Jesus.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Howabout we get someone new?
Someone who hasn't already visited immediate family in the Whitehouse? Cheese as Herbert Chrysler could we throw all the bums out and start over?

What we need is fresh blood there in the capital. Perhaps we could simply appoint the last place finisher of the Boston Marathon next time. This approach has several merits.

1) He'll have perseverance and follow through.
2) He'll have first hand understanding of suffering.
3) He'll be too slow to think he can get away from anyone.
4) The appointment will come as a complete surprise and thus will likely produce 4 years of solid service with the best intentions.

We could hardly do worse.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New That's how we get idiots in the White House
Being a Senator or Congressman appears to be the kiss of death with respect to presidential ambitions. These national positions of power require the encumbant to be, well, political. And we can't have our politicians be political now, can we?

Personally, I grow more tired of the outsiders, than I do the insiders. They just come in and fuck up all new things.
New As opposed to the solid performance of the former governors?
Nixon (CA)
Carter (GA)
Reagan (CA)
Clinton (AL)
Shrub (TX)

The congress is all in the pockets of industry chasing the almighty sheckel for their next big war chest. They're no help either.

I'm not sure the president needs to be 'political' (and exactly WTF does that mean today - AFAICS it means "on the take"). Just visionary, compassionate, and pragmatic.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Jesse Ventura, Bob Hickel
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New former governors
Nixon was a California Senator. His 1962 lunge at the governorship failed of its purpose, and led to the infamous "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore" press conference. Of course, he came back to be kicked again and again, but never as a governor.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New I stand corrected



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Clinton, governor of Alabama? I thought it was Arkansas...
"AL" means Alabama, doesn't it? I think Arkansas -- which I'm fairly sure is where Slick Willie hails from -- is "AK".

(If there's ever anything more you Yanks want to know about America, feel free to ask! :-)


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Ahem, AK is alaska AR Arkansas AZ arizona
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Ah, I see. Well, if there's ever anything *else*...
New One of those southern A-a states



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New I think you aren't far off
The essence must be..

"Someone who doesn't Want the Job"

And Oh Yes - merely Determining That <state of mind> would be as hard as eliciting the secrut sex fantasies of (the once-younger???) Foulwell or Ashcroft.

We have long passed the point where any public utterance may be remotely-trusted or by which we might interpret how (much of past 'performance') connects to, say, a long-term-strategy, simply To Get Power By Any Means as presents itself. (Or Make-up one)

Be a War-time Presyudent. Get reelected.
(Never mind that you Contrived it - few others mind.)
That's what we've sunk to.

G. Washington ~ set the Iridium standard in this regard; refusing Kingship was a bloody good start and while, Yes.. he sorta wanted to accept the Presidency (and dressed-well for the kick-off of that campaign) -- never was he (apparently...) obsessed with that aim; simply he was just so clearly possessed of the Integrity for the job - how could he not get it?

Integrity. Ay, there's the Rub.

I have no solution.

But cannot doubt that it's got to diverge from the $Power $Greed and other $____ shit we have all but accepted as 'normal' in this clinically insane consumer ghetto.

Neva hoppen - we're Fucked because we do not (generally) Want to be un-Fucked enough to seriously Fight for actual change in motivations, vision and (even) towards simple Survival. Beyond the next-quarter. As set by the 1% with most of the marbles and determined to add more, incessantly. Clinically insane are we; even long-term survival is not on our radar!


Sorry...
New Depressingly True, But there is hope.
we're Fucked because we do not (generally) Want to be un-Fucked enough to seriously Fight for actual change in motivations, vision and (even) towards simple Survival.


I've never seen a truer thing written, but I must say that my son's generation (at least judging by his and his friends beliefs/actions) is well poised to be the best thing to happen to this big blue marble. They have all the alruism of the 60's, yet are not so drug-dependent (down boys...it really is a good thing)
and they are smart enough to get off their butts to actually do something about problems rather than just pay lip service to them.



Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

Expand Edited by imqwerky July 20, 2005, 02:47:30 PM EDT
New Don't kids usually try to be the opposite of their parents?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Point Taken
So, since this generation is a bunch of beer belchin', belly-achin', do-nuthin's,
my son's bunch is going to be responsible and pro-active. (Sniff)
Does anybody have a tissue?

(Beaming with pride!)

Peace,
Amy

(My son doesn't feel the need to rebel because Critter and I instilled values in him that he respects. We also show respect for his values as a person. We show him that he is valuable for who he is, not for who we want him to be. That is probably the biggest mistake that many parents make...forcing kids to be who the parents want them to be rather than encouraging self-determination.

But that's a whole nother ball o' wax.

Peace again,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

Expand Edited by imqwerky July 20, 2005, 03:21:47 PM EDT
New /me sniggers
You buy THAT?

You've just surpressed his desire to rebel - sometime in his mid-twenties, he's going to go off on you like a ton of TNT. In the meantime, you've delayed his developmental cycle, tied him to his mother's apron strings, ad infinitum, ad nausem.

I speak from personal experience.
apt-get install godlike-powers
New He's already rebelled.
Just because we don't fight like others do doesn't mean he hasn't rebelled. It is a natural part of the separation from the family unit. Must happen for one to grow up and fly from the nest.

I'm just saying that he is concerned about how crappy things are politically and can hardly wait to cast his first vote. He just turned 18 in April. His friends are of a like mind, are committed to be drug-free, are a little on the goth-side, but other than that, are very knowledgeable about current events and political satire.

It is a breath of fresh air, politically speaking.

Peace,
Amy

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Merde Sante, what a ride!'"

.

New He's in the minority then
Despite much hullaballo, in the last election the percentage of youth who voted went down over the previous one.

I give better than even odds of that happening next time as well.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Usually failing in the end



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Same or opposite, little in between
Usually most of us are the opposite on some things, then the same on the rest.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Just for the record. - (imqwerky) - (134)
         and she would make the trains run on time, yeah right - (boxley) - (15)
             Man, you gotta stop listening to Faux News. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 who used Anthony Pelicano as their personal punch? -NT - (boxley)
             Oh Puhhhhhleeeezzzzzzz - (imqwerky) - (12)
                 point by point - (boxley) - (11)
                     /me raises hand - (jb4) - (3)
                         brunei, specifically ending a contract for mining in utah - (boxley) - (2)
                             Would that Alabama governor happen to be named Wallace? -NT - (jb4) - (1)
                                 /me makes whistling sound while gazing elsewhere -NT - (boxley)
                     Hardly any points. Why can't you STOP believing that drivel? - (CRConrad) - (4)
                         gee, is Rupert your dad? must be, you look like him - (boxley) - (3)
                             It matters if it is my Dad you're fellating,or someone else? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                 :-) yer slipping, does juanita broderick ring a bell? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Nope. Well, maybe, but none of mine anyway. -NT - (CRConrad)
                     Rebuttal - (imqwerky) - (1)
                         Correction for you - (ben_tilly)
         I don't care about Hillary's gender - (ben_tilly) - (75)
             ROFL. - (mmoffitt) - (70)
                 No, because it was beaurocratic crap. - (ben_tilly) - (69)
                     Why you can't leave it to the states. - (mmoffitt) - (65)
                         Swell. - (imric) - (53)
                             Fuck you. - (mmoffitt) - (51)
                                 You could say that about any profession - (drewk) - (6)
                                     Fairly? - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                         Those going into soldiering often don't have better options - (drewk) - (2)
                                             What about the officers? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                 They get paid quite a bit better - (drewk)
                                     Not necessarily - (imqwerky) - (1)
                                         Priorities - (drewk)
                                 And who the hell is gonna pay for the education? - (imric) - (34)
                                     next time mikey gets sick, send him to the va - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Yet another example of "supporting our troops" - (ben_tilly)
                                     Ping-pong policy-making...? -NT - (admin) - (1)
                                         You said it! -NT - (imric)
                                     We manage alright over here... - (pwhysall) - (29)
                                         Litigious fucks. - (imric) - (12)
                                             If your hypothetical MD does as you say, - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                                 So you're against the Physician's union? - (imric) - (10)
                                                     Huh? - (mmoffitt) - (9)
                                                         Yeah. Right. - (imric) - (8)
                                                             You can't even fucking read, can you skippy? - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                 Ok, cretin. - (imric) - (6)
                                                                     Again, you mislead. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                         _I_ mislead? - (imric) - (4)
                                                                             Free clue, knucklefuckers. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                 But I'm having too much fun HERE! -NT - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                     Crap. I c. My bad. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                         OK - (imric)
                                         Amen, with caveat. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                             The escalation of premiums is tied to the stock market - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                                                 I know about Reserve requirements, but, - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                     You may want to look into this further - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                         Excellent point. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                             80 % of deaths occur in hospitals - let's tear 'em all down! - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                 No, they're talking about terminal cases - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                     A) Schiavo. B) Yeah, I know. C) Yup, as Fernet-Branca grappa - (CRConrad)
                                                 A Flash of Brilliance! - (imqwerky) - (7)
                                                     Aside: Know what the difference between God and an MD is? - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                         Good one! -NT - (imqwerky)
                                                         Wanna fix that habit they have? - (Ashton)
                                                     Socialized insurance is what Canada has :-) -NT - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                         Study this more I will, yessssssssss. - (imqwerky) - (2)
                                                             Isn't there a bit of Gollum in there too, yessssssssss? :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                 Wellll, it should have been more of a yeeeeeeeees. - (imqwerky)
                                 "Patient, what would you like me to prescribe?" - (Arkadiy) - (8)
                                     Only the best for me ;-) signed The patient Patient -NT - (bepatient)
                                     And you think none of that happens when you pay them? - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         And another - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                             Agreed. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                 Inconsistent with Puritannical roots.___(really!) Sorry. - (Ashton)
                                         The above crap happened to 4 people - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                             Ah, but isn't getting more if you pay more your ideal? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                 Yes, when it's properly labeled as such -NT - (Arkadiy)
                             Soldiers get paid a lot less. - (pwhysall)
                         People made that argument when Canada did it - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                             Er, I don't think you're an idiot. - (mmoffitt) - (9)
                                 I think I've pointed this out before - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                     You misinterpretted my Kaiser question. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                         As far as I can see I understood your point perfectly - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                             Where did I suggest Canada was like Kaiser? - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                 Try here... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                     I didn't read it that way. - (Another Scott)
                                                     I think he was *contrasting* Kaiser to (his image of) Canada -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                         It sure doesn't look like that to me - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             Your hypothesis has the weakness... - (CRConrad)
                     Isn't Canada's health system having problems now? - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         flame forum asshole take this to politics :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         Part of a long-term unsustainable trend - (ben_tilly)
             I don't know how much of a disaster it would have been - (jb4) - (3)
                 The amount of bureaucracy created... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                     So in your mind bureaucracy == failure? - (jb4) - (1)
                         No - (ben_tilly)
         She's a fucking fraud, only out for #1! - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
             ICLRPD (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
         On not supporting HRC for president - (rcareaga) - (7)
             ICLRPD (new thread) - (broomberg)
             Precisam\ufffdnte boyo.. - (Ashton)
             If she is so good why is every republican in the nation - (boxley) - (4)
                 sure you do--you call the treat "WorldNetDaily" -NT - (rcareaga) - (3)
                     I know that sometimes there is nuggets under those rocks - (boxley) - (2)
                         Wooooo - (drewk) - (1)
                             (it was ghost-written...) -NT - (jb4)
         Troll Successful! - (imqwerky) - (7)
             That's one way to try to end a thread... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                 "Try"being the operative word. Doesn't usually work, though. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                     Critter made me do it :-D - (imqwerky) - (2)
                         (Never mind this one; duplicate) -NT - (CRConrad)
                         Uh, Amy, couldja do us a favour, please? (new thread) - (CRConrad)
                     Clue to planet Christian... - (ben_tilly)
                 ObLRPD: "tilly wonders what the upper limit ... " - (drewk)
         In The Inquirer fortune today. More on HRK. - (Another Scott) - (4)
             she is neither evil nor a leftist - (boxley) - (3)
                 How do you explain that Moynahan suppored her? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     how many times was the word vindictive used? smoke/fire -NT - (boxley)
                 Jesus H. - (mmoffitt)
         Howabout we get someone new? - (tuberculosis) - (18)
             That's how we get idiots in the White House - (ChrisR) - (8)
                 As opposed to the solid performance of the former governors? - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                     Jesse Ventura, Bob Hickel -NT - (boxley)
                     former governors - (rcareaga) - (1)
                         I stand corrected -NT - (tuberculosis)
                     Clinton, governor of Alabama? I thought it was Arkansas... - (CRConrad) - (3)
                         Ahem, AK is alaska AR Arkansas AZ arizona -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             Ah, I see. Well, if there's ever anything *else*... -NT - (CRConrad)
                         One of those southern A-a states -NT - (tuberculosis)
             I think you aren't far off - (Ashton) - (8)
                 Depressingly True, But there is hope. - (imqwerky) - (7)
                     Don't kids usually try to be the opposite of their parents? -NT - (drewk) - (6)
                         Point Taken - (imqwerky) - (3)
                             /me sniggers - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                 He's already rebelled. - (imqwerky) - (1)
                                     He's in the minority then - (ben_tilly)
                         Usually failing in the end -NT - (tuberculosis)
                         Same or opposite, little in between - (ben_tilly)

A few slices of bread short of a loaf.
1,670 ms