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New Series of terror attacks in London
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm| London rocked by terror attacks]

Two people have been killed and scores have been injured after three blasts on the Underground network and another on a double-decker bus in London.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said it was "reasonably clear" there had been a series of terrorist attacks.

He said it was "particularly barbaric" that it was timed to coincide with the G8 summit. He is returning to London.

An Islamist website has posted a statement - purportedly from al-Qaeda - claiming it was behind the attacks.
New The death toll is up to 40 (13:30 GMT)
New Not fun at all.
I would not be in the least surprised at whomever takes responsibility for this, I can think of 2 groups. One has been playing rather nicely recently (in comparison to the history of it) and has been itching lately. The other just recnetly started to *REALLY* take notice of the UK after a certain event happened in the US North East, sometime in the fall of 2001, with the UK bending for the US.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New the first group has 98% of the time called ahead
this time no apparent warning. I also beleive their boom quality is better than what has happened. Imagine it will be a while before we know with any certainty
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Is there any doubt at all?
I mean, all the signs point to it being al Qaeda.

1) Suicide attacks. (Although this hasn't been demonstrated yet, the fact that at least one of the tube bombings was done when 2 trains were together in a station points to it having a human trigger.)
2) No warning.
3) Coordinated, nearly simultaneous bombings.
4) Civilian victims.
5) Highly visible.
6) Timed to cause maximum economic damage and confusion (morning rush-hour).

Etc.

It may be a new cell, but it has all the markings of an al Qaeda group, IMO.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Al-Qaeda organisation claims responsibility
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm| Statement claiming London attacks]

The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.

The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.

The group is previously unknown.

The website has previously carried statements purporting to be from al-Qaeda. It is not possible to verify such claims published on the web.
New Connect the dots
Too bad the media never will.

There didn't use to be a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. There is now.

Why the fuck did we ever drop the ball on Osama to create new problems for ourselves in Iraq???

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New It's not so simple.
Al Qaeda didn't need the excuse of Iraq to attack the UK. They could have used Afghanistan as an excuse (the UK has a large presence there as well).

If you haven't already, take a look at the translated [link|http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/aqmanual.pdf|al Qaeda training manual] at the FAS site. (140 page .pdf):

[p.5]
In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate

PRESENTATION

To those champions who avowed the truth day and night ... ... And wrote with their blood and sufferings these phrases ...- *- The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostate regimes does not know Socratic debates ..., Platonic ideals ..., nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.
*** ...

Islamic governments have never and will never be established through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils. They are established as they [always] have been -- -
by pen and gun

by word and bullet

by tongue and teeth

[...]

[p.9]

After the fall of our orthodox caliphates on March 3 , 1924 and after expelling the colonialists, our Islamic nation was afflicted with apostate rulers who took over in the Moslem nation. These rulers turned out to be more infidel and criminal than the colonialists themselves. Moslems have endured all kinds of harm, oppression, and torture at their hands.

[...]

Colonialism and its followers, the apostate rulers, then started to openly erect crusader centers, societies, and organizations like Masonic Lodges, Lions and Rotary clubs, and foreign schools. They aimed at producing a wasted generation that pursued everything that is western and produced rulers, ministers, leaders, physicians, engineers, businessmen, politicians, journalists, and information specialists. [Koranic verse:] "And Allah's enemies plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah."

[p.10]
The young men returning to Allah realized that Islam is not just performing rituals but a complete system: Religion and government, worship and Jihad [holy warl, ethics and dealing with people, and the Koran and sword. The bitter situation that the nation has reached is a result of its divergence from Allah's course and his righteous law for all places and times. That [bitter situation] came about as a result of its children's love for the world, their loathing of death, and their abandonment of Jihad [holy warl.

Unbelief is still the same. It pushed Abou Jahl- may Allah curse him - and-Kureish's valiant infidels to battle the-prophet - God bless and keep him - and to torture his companions - may Allah's grace be on them. It is the same unbelief that drove Sadat, Hosni Mubarak, Gadhafi, Hafez Assad, Saleh, Fahed - Allah's curse be upon the non-believing leaders - and all the apostate Arab rulers to torture, kill, imprison, and torment Moslems. . -

[Hmm. I wonder why Saddam isn't mentioned.]

These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes,. does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.

[p.14]

[...]
The main mission for which the Military Organization is responsible is:

The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:
1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3 . Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy.
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality, and sin; not a vital target.
7 . Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the cities.


And so on.

They want all Moslems to be ruled by a Caliphate that is established by terror and force of arms. Since many non-Arab countries have large Moslem populations (e.g. the US has ~ 3 M, the UK has ~ 1.6 M, according to the CIA Factbook), that leads to an obvious conclusion that they want a world-wide Caliphate. That is obviously unacceptable.

One could say that, well, this is just a manual for attacking governments of countries that were previously part of the Ottoman Empire. But that's clearly not the case. Al Qaeda was attacking the US and other governments that supported middle-east countries, using these techniques, in the [link|http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm|early 1990s]. It continues to do so.

Yes, al Qaeda wants to take advantage of popular misgivings and anger about Iraq to attempt to get governments to change their policies. (Consider Spain after the Madrid bombing.) But if the UK wasn't in Iraq, and if instead of invading Iraq the US had done more in Afghanistan, well I don't think that would change al Qaeda's MO one bit. They are at war with the modern world and will be for a long time. Since al Qaeda is scattered throughout the globe, even if bin Laden and his henchmen had been captured in 2001 or 2002, I don't think it would make much of a difference to the true-believers who are members.

That does not mean, of course, that we shouldn't redouble our efforts to capture or kill them. Of course, we should as part of a larger effort to win hearts and minds.

It's just that I believe that attacks by al Qaeda won't end until either 1) the west completely withdraws from the middle east and all other predominantly Moslem countries and cedes them to the terrorists, or 2) the world somehow finds a way to defeat extremists like them. 1) is a non-starter. 2) implies a very long and costly struggle. As such, I expect attacks like these, every year or 18 months or so, for a long time to come. With luck, we'll find a way to stop them in most cases.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New It is that simple, but I'm not saying what you think I am
I'm not saying that they needed the excuse to attack Britain.

I'm saying that with this particular excuse, they'll get a lot more mileage from it in donations and further volunteers.

Iraq has become a recruiting ground and a cause felt through the Muslim world. That is the connection that is there now, which wasn't when we just kept the place poor and bottled up. Afghanistan could be both those things as well, but not on the same scale.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Wouldn't have mattered
Brits were pretty involved in Afghanistan. Only surprising thing is that it took this long and that the amount of damage done is not in the thousands of lives. Anyhow, I agree that we were naive to try to get involved in making people, who hate, torture and kill each other, try to live without their beloved thug. But in the whole scheme of things, it probably would not have made a difference as to whether London was made a target.

My compassion goes out to the Brits.
New I agree that Iraq is an excuse....
for Al-Qaeda to attack.

However, it also knocks a hole in Bush's FlyPaper philosophy of Iraq. We may or may not be fighting Al-Qaeda in Iraq. It doesn't prevent Al-Qaeda from attacking us elsewhere.

New Because...
"we" (for very small values of 'we') are not very bright....







(And it shouldn't be too much of a strain on the old brain cells to determine how small a value that is...).
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New :-)
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New ICLRPD.
Because "we" (for very small values of 'we') are not very bright....
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New prior warning apparently received
[link|http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_britain_explosions_1|http://news.yahoo.co...tain_explosions_1]
just before the blasts, Scotland Yard called the security officer at the Israeli Embassy to say they had received warnings of possible attacks, the official said. He did not say whether British police made any link to the economic conference.
now either this was a phone in or informant alerts I have no idea. Al Quida does not prewarn, or has not in the past.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Nah, the contact was made after the blasts.
That was on either CNN or MSNBC.
Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
New Oh man!
Is Peter all right? Isn't he in London? Hope all our British IWTheyers are okay!

Brenda



"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"
New I believe Peter is still HERE.
In the US.

By any means, he lives "In the Lowland" as Lowlanders do.

In any case, I do hope less of this happens.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
New I'm glad he's ok
I feel soooo out of the news loop. I spent the entire day with mom doing decoration inventory and pack up and I saw NO news. we even went back there tonight. Tomorrow I need to get caught up with what exactly happened.

Definitely keeping all the victims in my prayers tonight, too.

Brenda



"I see little yellow butterflies fluttering round my head and hear little happy bluebirds singing overhead....all will be just fine!"
New London's Mayor speaks:
\ufffdThis was a cowardly attack, which has resulted in injury and loss of life. Our thoughts are with everyone who has been injured, or lost loved ones. I want to thank the emergency services for the way they have responded.

Following the al-Qaeda attacks on September 11 in America we conducted a series of exercises in London in order to be prepared for just such an attack. One of the exercises undertaken by the government, my office and the emergency and security services was based on the possibility of multiple explosions on the transport system during the Friday rush hour. The plan that came out of that exercise is being executed today, with remarkable efficiency and courage, and I praise those staff who are involved.

I\ufffdd like to thank Londoners for the calm way in which they have responded to this cowardly attack and echo the advice of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair - do everything possible to assist the police and take the advice of the police about getting home today.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this is a terrorist attack. We did hope in the first few minutes after hearing about the events on the Underground that it might simply be a maintenance tragedy. That was not the case. I have been able to stay in touch through the very excellent communications that were established for the eventuality that I might be out of the city at the time of a terrorist attack and they have worked with remarkable effectiveness. I will be in continual contact until I am back in London.

I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.

That isn\ufffdt an ideology, it isn\ufffdt even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I\ufffdm proud to be the mayor of that city.

Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life.

I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail.

In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don\ufffdt want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.\ufffd
[link|http://news.ft.com/cms/s/dcdfe116-ef08-11d9-8b10-00000e2511c8,dwp_uuid=46d6f5a8-d260-11d8-b661-00000e2511c8.html| Source ]
New Amen.
Brit leaders can turn a phrase in a way that our Yankee so-called "leaders" couldn't even conceive.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I heard this and I thought, wow! He gets it.
it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder

Right on the button. This was an horrific crime and the low born criminal filth that is responsible for it should be hunted down, tried, convicted and sentenced to death. Just as 9/11 was a crime. It has bothered me for some time that we throw this "War" term around so freely...
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Neither fish nor fowl, crime nor war - it is something else
And we are ill equipped to deal with it.

Wars are large scale acts of aggression carried out by nation states against other nation states. In war, you know who your attackers are, where they live, and what they want. The attackers generally attack with discrimination to achieve strategic advantage. Because the boundaries of the conflict are along national borders, wars are best fought by governments.

Crimes are acts by individuals against other individuals. They are seldom coordinated, they are localized, and damage is limited to a few individuals or perhaps a corporation. The attackers generally attack with discrimination to achieve personal gain. All participants in crimes typically share a locality of influence making them amenable to efforts of local authorities.

Terror is neither. It is large scale acts of agression carried out against individuals indiscriminately, by organizations that are dispersed and do not recognize geographic or national boundaries. As the attackers are not aligned with any particular geography or physical infrastructure, they are not well suited to techniqies commonly employed either in war, or in law enforcement.

The bottom line is we need to change the game plan and find out who and why, then begin fighting them with the same kinds of weapons they use to build support. This is propaganda, long standing resentments, victim-hood, religion and other superstitions. The only sure way to end terrorism is through peace, love, and understanding of the terrorist's personal world view.

Sadly, a bunch of jack-booted, no-compromise, black and white neocons will never succeed at such an enterprise. Instead, they will continue their death grip on ineffective but self-righteous feel-good policies (Cuban embargo anyone?) right into the ground dragging us all down with them.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New I don't think that'll work.
"The only sure way to end terrorism is through peace, love, and understanding of the terrorist's personal world view" will be interpreted as a sign of weakness.

This will continue to escallate until WMDs are used and the dead number in the millions - then there will be a slaughter of Islam and the dead will number in the hundreds of millions.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New You're depressing me.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Well, that's backwards.
New Appears to be working somewhat in Yemen
they gather up the fuckwits, sit them in front of a real imam who clearly explains that they are being taught fuckwittery. The guys go "whoops sorry!" and appear to give up their ways. No, the clear method is to destroy maddrassa's wahibiism either with or without the saudi royals assistance and then get stuck in on the shiites.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
     Series of terror attacks in London - (bluke) - (26)
         The death toll is up to 40 (13:30 GMT) -NT - (bluke)
         Not fun at all. - (folkert) - (3)
             the first group has 98% of the time called ahead - (boxley) - (2)
                 Is there any doubt at all? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Al-Qaeda organisation claims responsibility - (bluke)
         Connect the dots - (ben_tilly) - (7)
             It's not so simple. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 It is that simple, but I'm not saying what you think I am - (ben_tilly)
             Wouldn't have mattered - (ChrisR)
             I agree that Iraq is an excuse.... - (Simon_Jester)
             Because... - (jb4) - (2)
                 :-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                 ICLRPD. - (mmoffitt)
         prior warning apparently received - (boxley) - (1)
             Nah, the contact was made after the blasts. - (a6l6e6x)
         Oh man! - (Nightowl) - (2)
             I believe Peter is still HERE. - (folkert) - (1)
                 I'm glad he's ok - (Nightowl)
         London's Mayor speaks: - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
             Amen. - (jb4)
             I heard this and I thought, wow! He gets it. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                 Neither fish nor fowl, crime nor war - it is something else - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                     I don't think that'll work. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                         You're depressing me. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             Well, that's backwards. -NT - (inthane-chan)
                         Appears to be working somewhat in Yemen - (boxley)

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