IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 1 active user | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New How to get off a jury
I recently was called up for jury duty. After hanging out in the pretty comfortable jury room (sofas, TV, etc), we went down to the courtroom and heard the charges -- oh, no, the guy is on trial for molesting several young girls.

Well, before I was kicked off ("for cause"), we were getting close to finishing jury selection but had gone through three days worth of call ups -- and had just added a fourth day (another 53 people after excuses).

One obvious way to get off is to be biased ("If he's accused, he's guilty") -- this was used by a fair number of women and some men. But the QA Engineer did it better. Much simplified, it went something like this:

Defense Attorney: Tell me about your job.
QAE: I'm in charge of quality. I used to be a process engineer. I'll use the same techniques I use at work to evaluate the evidence in this trial. See, I'll map out the charges, and the evidence to support the charges into a mathematical model.
Defense Attorney: That sounds complicated.
QAE: Well, it sounds complicated, but after I've explained it for two or three hours, it makes sense to everyone. I'll assign values to the different pieces of evidence. I'll use this to evaluate the evidence.
You look at what assertions depend upon what evidence, so if certain facts are disproved then you can analyze what higher level items are disproved and ....Am I talking too much?
Judge: No, this is interesting. I want to hear more. How do you assign the values?
(Long discussion, Judge gets the answer he wants: QAE does use his judgement to assign values.)
(Prosecutor asks questions, mentions she isn't mathematical at all, does not seem to like QAE approach at all).
QAE gets on the jury without challenge for cause -- and then, in a minute, is off again at the Prosecutor's next pre-emptory challenge.

One women was very prejudiced -- she admitted in court that she felt a certain ethnic group was less truthful.

Several people (both sexes) had mysterious migraine headaches that appeared when they were stressed, like listening to conflicting evidence.

At times, it seems we were going backwards, as people already on the jury (not removed for cause) tried to get off.

Then there was the paralegal who suddenly become prejudiced against the defense -- and changed her answers from her questionaire; the judge was not happy, and pointed out exactly how she changed her answers. I suspect she got verbally chewed out, but she did get removed for cause.

However, not everyone was a fruitcake. One guy was asked a question (where Yes meant he was biased), and answered "Well, I'd like to say Yes, but I have to say no." Prosecutor -- "Yes, I know you would like to be off the jury". He stayed got on and stayed on through the pre-emptory challenges.

The judge did a good job; he was very patient (much more patient than most of the jury pool), asked very clear and precise questions and had a sense of humor. A couple examples:
1. Prosecutor's cell phone starts ringing out in a merry melody. Judge: something similar to "Can you give me that tune for my phone?" Prosecutor, embarrased, quickly turns off cell phone.
2. Juror has problem staying alert. Judge: "Is my voice putting you to sleep?"
3. Me: "I'm concerned about the length of this trial. If it goes into August, I'll have problems because my wife is due to give birth at the end of August."
Judge: "At the rate we're going, we'll finish in December" (trial end is officially scheduled for end of July)

Overall, my opinion of people has gone down, but it was an interesting mix of people, and some people were quite impressive.

Tony
New What cause did they have for kicking you off?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New My opinions based on the '80's witch hunt
otherwise known as the great child care center molestation scare. Examples include:
Wenatchee, WA (over 40 people indicted IIRC)
Amiraults in MA (Mr. Amirault served 18 years in jail, former Gov Jane Swift denied him parole against recommendations of parole board for political reasons, and prosecuter still claims he's guilty)
Miami, FL (Janet Reno's claim to fame -- before Waco and Elian -- and she's never apologized either).

This case doesn't seem to be like those cases (e.g. I don't think assistant DA is running for office), but it apparently involves very young children and no physical evidence. CA law is that you can be convicted on 1 person's testimony alone, including 1 child's testimony (and yes, I do see the reason for that).

Still, the jury seem to be shaping up pretty well, so I think justice will be done. At last count, 9 men and 2 women, and 1 open spot.

Tony
New Ah. Makes sense.
I suspect that I would not have been allowed on the jury for somewhat similar reasons.

It always amazes me that we've evolved from a system where a jury was supposed to bring the wisdom and perspective of the community to the problem of justice to one in which we actively want jurors who do not know anything about the subject at hand. But when I was on a jury I was amazed at how much information the jury proved to have about a random time and location in the (large) community.

I'm not sure if that knowledge should be regarded as a success or failure of the system.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New ICLRPeeDee (new thread)
Created as new thread #210748 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210748|ICLRPeeDee]
New I think the jury will be OK
It's a tough case. I have some reservations about the way things are done, but I'm not sure how a workable system could be better.

My feeling, from hearing some of the jurors talk on the record and off (during the breaks) is that the jury will be critical, intelligent, and sensible. And, the DA claimed to want the right kind of juror: people would presume the defendent innocent, but would vote guilty if she could prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. The DA didn't want people who would put an extra burden on the prosecution (e.g. "beyond any doubt") and felt that I would do that.

However, I did note that when the defense got someone to admit to bias, the DA would try to get them to say that was their feeling and that they could be impartial.

For improvements, well for one, decent pay for jurors would really increase the jury pool and be well worth the money (considering how much money California wastes). I also have doubts about the number of pre-emptory challenges (we were up to 12 when I left).

Some people (not just me) were uncomfortable with the rules of evidence -- based on the child center cases, I would have wanted to know things like "Were the witnesses prompted for evidence?" , "Did they have any contact with psychiatrists", "Did they claim a recovered memory", etc that I don't think would have been answered.

I suspect from the few details I know about this case that there does seem to be a basis for the charges, IOW whether or not the charges are true, based on what the accusers told the police, they had to bring the matter to court. Which, by the way, has taken two years.

BTW, I was prepared to serve, but the trial would have been a real sacrifice -- I would've had to work about 60 hours a week (30 trial, 30 at regular work) for at least two months.

Tony
ex-juror
     How to get off a jury - (tonytib) - (5)
         What cause did they have for kicking you off? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
             My opinions based on the '80's witch hunt - (tonytib) - (3)
                 Ah. Makes sense. - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                     ICLRPeeDee (new thread) - (Ashton)
                     I think the jury will be OK - (tonytib)

And Bob's your uncle...
91 ms