If you're doing Windows programming

You asserted most companies, not some companies.

That companies exist which make the choice you describe I do not dispute. I'm questioning whether it is really most that won't accept anything other than the alternatives that Peter suggests.

As for C and C++, it is trivially possible to do Windows programming with C and C++. It is also possible to write portable applications with them. I strongly suspect that you're right though, most people doing GUIs with C and C++ are writing Windows code. (Of course plenty of people do plenty of non-GUI work in those languages. I'm not sure whether we're discussing the options for software development as initially thought Peter meant, or options for GUI interfaces as I now suspect Peter meant.)

Historically, of course, the dominant language for small business applications was VB. But my experience and comments from others suggest that a lot of things that used to be done that way are now being done as small web applications, mostly using PHP or Perl. And they pop up in enough organizations that I'd question whether most corporations are willing to consider doing stuff in something other than Java or .NET or win32. (Even though most of what they do may be in those platforms.)

When it comes to general software development, of course, even if the official line is just the major platforms, it is amazing at how often something else (eg Perl) seems to sneak in...

Cheers,
Ben

I'm not sure of Dan's exact reasons for being upset. I know that he's been irritated in the past at people who hang around and try to look cool while doing nothing. I know that he's been running the project for 5 years, and that is a long time to do anything. I know that the system they are trying to build suffers from some second syndrome tendancies.

Parrot is not widely used anywhere, of course, but according to reports that I've seen it is mature enough to build real languages on it. But I have to admit (as someone who hasn't played with it) that I'd question whether I'd want to run production stuff on it. Nobody seems to be using it for production yet, and periodically there are major design changes.

The core Perl developer community is not the easiest to interact with. As with all open source projects, you take what you get, which isn't always what you want. I think that it is better than it was a few years ago when p5p was a constant flamewar.

The project itself is still ticking along. See [link|http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/p6pdigest/20050602.html|http://www.perl.com/...est/20050602.html] for details. Atrijus Tang suggests that a useable Perl 6 could be real by Christmas. Of course the way that it finally happened is 90% due to Atrijus, Haskell, and various design documents that people wanted to make real. It is perhaps 10% due to Parrot. (Parrot is only one of several back ends, though hopefully it will be the best-performing.)

Cheers,
Ben

Post #209,700 by admin 6/2/05 6:35:37 PM Reply	If you're doing Windows programming Then C and C++ == Win32. If you're talking about Web projects, then the choices for many companies (certainly the ones I've worked at) is reduced to Java or .NET. MySQL and PHP are non-starters here, and only a fool would use C or C++ for a web project. And regardless, you proved my assertion already: "plenty of corporations", which implies not all corporations, which is exactly my assertion that it depends on the company. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #209,703 by ben_tilly 6/2/05 7:18:20 PM Reply	Double check your assertion You asserted most companies, not some companies. That companies exist which make the choice you describe I do not dispute. I'm questioning whether it is really most that won't accept anything other than the alternatives that Peter suggests. As for C and C++, it is trivially possible to do Windows programming with C and C++. It is also possible to write portable applications with them. I strongly suspect that you're right though, most people doing GUIs with C and C++ are writing Windows code. (Of course plenty of people do plenty of non-GUI work in those languages. I'm not sure whether we're discussing the options for software development as initially thought Peter meant, or options for GUI interfaces as I now suspect Peter meant.) Historically, of course, the dominant language for small business applications was VB. But my experience and comments from others suggest that a lot of things that used to be done that way are now being done as small web applications, mostly using PHP or Perl. And they pop up in enough organizations that I'd question whether most corporations are willing to consider doing stuff in something other than Java or .NET or win32. (Even though most of what they do may be in those platforms.) When it comes to general software development, of course, even if the official line is just the major platforms, it is amazing at how often something else (eg Perl) seems to sneak in... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,827 by admin 6/4/05 9:33:06 AM Reply	Yep, my bad. The point still stands, though. In my experience it's most companies. And from what I've seen and heard from others, it's most companies. Your own experience, and that of many here, is likely skewed by the fact that you won't work for a company that doesn't consider alternatives to begin with. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #209,828 by boxley 6/4/05 10:16:25 AM Reply	having spent time around some large telco's and currently working for a 22K employee (large) there is a LOT more pearl than people may realize. It is a common message inter application glue. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,829 by ChrisR 6/4/05 10:36:21 AM Reply	Speaking of pearl... ...what's up with [link\|http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000400.html\|Parrot] these days?
Post #209,830 by Another Scott 6/4/05 11:43:03 AM Reply	He doesn't sound like a happy warrior.
Post #209,845 by ben_tilly 6/4/05 5:50:28 PM Reply	s/pearl/Perl. As for the rest... I'm not sure of Dan's exact reasons for being upset. I know that he's been irritated in the past at people who hang around and try to look cool while doing nothing. I know that he's been running the project for 5 years, and that is a long time to do anything. I know that the system they are trying to build suffers from some second syndrome tendancies. Parrot is not widely used anywhere, of course, but according to reports that I've seen it is mature enough to build real languages on it. But I have to admit (as someone who hasn't played with it) that I'd question whether I'd want to run production stuff on it. Nobody seems to be using it for production yet, and periodically there are major design changes. The core Perl developer community is not the easiest to interact with. As with all open source projects, you take what you get, which isn't always what you want. I think that it is better than it was a few years ago when p5p was a constant flamewar. The project itself is still ticking along. See [link\|http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/p6pdigest/20050602.html\|http://www.perl.com/...est/20050602.html] for details. Atrijus Tang suggests that a useable Perl 6 could be real by Christmas. Of course the way that it finally happened is 90% due to Atrijus, Haskell, and various design documents that people wanted to make real. It is perhaps 10% due to Parrot. (Parrot is only one of several back ends, though hopefully it will be the best-performing.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,113 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:56:24 PM 8/21/07 6:10:13 AM Reply	That shoulda been a new thread "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:13 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,838 by ben_tilly 6/4/05 3:34:16 PM Reply	You're trying to get my goat, aren't you? Perl, not pearl! I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,839 by boxley 6/4/05 3:38:30 PM Reply	one is a jewel and the other a shellfish hemorrhoid? All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,030 by jb4 6/6/05 11:16:21 AM Reply	One is a jewel, and the other a kind of knitting? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #210,111 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:53:50 PM 8/21/07 6:10:11 AM Reply	Fools we is I guess One guess what our app server is written in? "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:11 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,156 by admin 6/6/05 10:49:15 PM Reply	Ugh. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,166 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 11:29:52 PM 8/21/07 6:11:02 AM Reply	Makes sense if you think about it Basically, our "platform" is almost an OS totally devoted to networking, process distribution, and caching. For OS level work, you use industrial strength tools. There's a reason we consistently get you a page tailored just for you in under 2 seconds. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:11:02 AM EDT Expand All History

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