Post #209,426
6/1/05 6:18:34 PM
8/21/07 5:54:10 AM
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I also mentioned speed
Double click java app icon and watch the icon appear in the toolbar and begin to bounce
and bounce
and bounce
at which point an animated pogo stick appears superimposed on the icon letting you know that the icon is having a great time and isn't likely to stop bouncing anytime soon.
At this point the cursor becomes the rainbow hued spinning beachball of death.
A flower blooms somewhere in central america.
And then suddenly a minute passed. Followed by another minute.
At some point a window opens and draws in stately fashion - as though hand painted by a tender child holding a paintbrush in a clenched fist. It is just an image of a window though. Not quite dead and yet not fully alive yet either.
Eventually the rainbow cursor evaporates and little events begin trickling towards the window. plink, plonk.
Then a spasm of flashing and activating/deactivating caused by all of the events you idly created while mousing around waiting for this very moment.
And then the application is finally, at last, fully launched. Ready to corrupt your data and vomit NullPointerExceptions all over the system logs.
This is the Java Swing Experience in all its glory.
I'll pass.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #209,430
6/1/05 7:07:58 PM
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Moore solves that one
I'm hardly a Java fan either.
But it is possible for a Java application to be useable and to have acceptable performance. (Particularly on modern hardware.) And eye-candy problems do not always indicate that the software is bad. While most Java programmers are crap, there are some good ones and the ratio between the two doesn't seem significantly different from what it is in most mainstream languages.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #209,453
6/1/05 9:40:23 PM
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IOW
While most Java programmers are crap, there are some good ones and the ratio between the two doesn't seem significantly different from what it is in most mainstream languages. While most Java programmers are crap, most all programmers are crap. ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #209,455
6/1/05 9:56:21 PM
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Ding, Ding, Ding!
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
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Post #209,476
6/1/05 11:38:56 PM
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The traditional figure is 90% :-)
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #210,110
6/6/05 6:51:06 PM
8/21/07 6:10:08 AM
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That number is low
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #209,477
6/1/05 11:47:53 PM
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Absolutely
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Post #209,514
6/2/05 3:28:22 AM
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That's just not *elegant* (in the Jargon file sense.)
Sure, Moore solves that. Give him a bit moore (Heh) time, and he'll solve you writing it in frigging COBOL. That still doesn't make COBOL a "neat" language. Ben notes, though: But it is possible for a Java application to be useable and to have acceptable performance. Yeah, sure, I suppose -- to shift your emphasis a little -- it is possible... But the ones I've seen, they don't actually live up to that possibility. So for me, Java DOES, in point of actual on-the-ground FACT, suck.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #210,107
6/6/05 6:49:02 PM
8/21/07 6:09:59 AM
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I think there is something architecturally wrong with Swing
for its launch time to be so bad.
Once it is up, it is so-so. Not great, often not awful either. It does look ugly next to the rest of the Mac UI though. Menu placement remains fiddly - you never know if the menubars will show up on the window or the top of the screen.
The other point I'd have to make is "where are the good java apps"? Everytime this question come up people just bring up a bunch of dev tools. Eclipse (which isn't Swing BTW), IDEA, NetBeans. Great big old developer self love festival.
Then there is the lotus improv clone - very slow to launch and ugly and alien looking besides. There's my data modeler app - which left such a bad taste in my mouth that I have no desire to work on a swing app again. Probably 40% of the code is to deal with swing widgets tossing null pointer exceptions because they don't have a model object just now because - hey, the user hasn't created a model.
If Swing was a good development environment, we'd be up to our asses in apps by now. The old "well its kind of new" doesn't cut it anymore. Its not new - its friggen ancient and still nobody wants to bother writing for it because it is so fiddly to get basic stuff working predictably.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #210,155
6/6/05 10:48:15 PM
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There is...
... but you're still full of crap. :-)
To turn down Moneydance because "It's Java". Quit making excuses.
Launch time is better than the equivalent C/C++ app, and the interface is better. But that's outside your precept, so you don't bother addressing it.
Color me disappointed.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #210,162
6/6/05 11:25:03 PM
8/21/07 6:10:56 AM
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Dupe
Friggin plastic monolith stink pot cabin cruiser has pulled into the dock next to me and I think is beginning to block my signal. :-(
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #210,163
6/6/05 11:25:13 PM
8/21/07 6:10:58 AM
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I last looked at it 2-3 years ago`
some dweeb at JavaOne handed me a disk - I took it home - it sucked. Half the labels were clipped wrong or bleeding onto the next widget.
I imagine its better now but the initial look was so bad I haven't bothered to look again.
....
OK so I downloaded it and poked around. Its improved a lot but is still obviously a Java app (there's not enough space around the text labels - layout looks crammed). I'll give you that it launched fairly quickly on the second launch. I'm not sure why the second one was improved - first launch was abysmal - taking roughly ten times as long as Quicken to fire up.
Quicken is fine and I don't have any inclination to "port" my data. Call me when they have one click import and it all just works. I dumped 2005's data as a QIF file and imported it and a lot of stuff was missing (like bank info). Also wasn't clear that I could do online bill pay or transfers - didn't see menu items for it.
So I'll give you that this app - while not as nice as native, is one of the least sucky Java apps I've seen.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #210,169
6/6/05 11:57:59 PM
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Doesn't look like that on my machine.
Looks just like a native app. And it's pretty fast even on the first start.
What are you running it on? Minis aren't exactly known for their speed.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #210,252
6/7/05 1:04:47 PM
8/21/07 6:12:50 AM
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Powerbook G6
Powerbook G4 + 1G(Hz) + 1G(Bytes) = G6 (according to my HS algebra teacher).
Machine is plenty fast and never seems to break a sweat. I suspect initial VM warmup is extra expensive but is then cached somehow.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #209,465
6/1/05 10:31:55 PM
6/1/05 11:15:09 PM
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Jesus you're full of crap sometimes, Todd.
I loaded it up. About 1s to get a splash screen, then another 5 seconds to get through the various "this is an eval" and licensing dialogs (95% user time). Then another 5 seconds to create a new profile, save it, and quit. anderson@spork:~/dnl/md/moneydance$ time ./moneydance
loading platform helper...
real 0m3.056s
user 0m2.172s
sys 0m0.167s
That's a full program load, loading the new profile (or whatever they call it), then pressing ctrl-q to quit as soon as I see it's loaded. This is an AMD 2500. Not particularly fast, not particularly slow. Now, comparing this to Gnucash, doing the same thing: anderson@spork:~$ time gnucash
real 0m5.443s
user 0m3.139s
sys 0m0.106s Boy, that "C" language must be really slow, if it's that much slower than Java. And this is after I've cached it. The first time I ran it, 5 seconds to a splash, and another 5 to the loaded screen. The first time I ran Moneydance, it was just as fast as the other times. Typically I'm not going to have my finance app cached, so I'm sitting there for the 10 seconds every time with Gnucash. On the Mini (1.4Ghz G4), it's about 5 seconds to get do the same thing in Moneydance. In comparison, iCal takes 3 seconds to start, NeoOffice 10s, and Camino 6s. Beyond the speed differences, Gnucash has a UI that can charitably be described as "ass" in comparison to that of Moneydance. Guess which UI is pixelated, and which one has smooth text and nice widgets? And the Moneydance widgets sure as hell look like native Mac widgets to me. Actually, some of them are nicer. The checkboxes, for example, while they look just like the Mac widgets, have a nice background halo when in focus that the Mac widgets don't. This knee-jerk asshattery of yours is beneath you. Get over it. Shitty programs come in all languages. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Edited by admin
June 1, 2005, 10:41:38 PM EDT
Edited by admin
June 1, 2005, 11:15:09 PM EDT
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Post #209,701
6/2/05 6:46:35 PM
6/2/05 6:47:40 PM
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Yeah...but what do you REALLY think? ;-)
Heck from that tirade, I'd almost think you'd approve of C++ before Java! Say it ain't so, Todd!
(OK, so maybe an application written in C++ before one written in Java? I'm trying to throw you a bone here....)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
June 2, 2005, 06:47:40 PM EDT
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