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New Here is one of his responses ...
regarding the earth revolving around the sun

One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity. Thus, if there are phenomena that cannot be adequately explained on the basis of one of these views, such difficulties have their counterpart also if the opposite view is accepted.

Secondly, the scientific conclusion that both views have equal validity is the result not of any inadequacy of available scientific data, or of technological development (measuring instruments, etc.), in which case it could be expected that further scientific or technological advancement might clear up the matter eventually and decide in favor of one or the other view. On the contrary, the conclusion of contemporary science is that regardless of any future scientific advancement, the question as to which is our planetary center, the sun or the earth, must forever remain unresolved, since both view[s] will always have the same scientific validity, as stated.

Thirdly, it follows that anyone declaring that a person who chooses to accept one of these systems in preference to the other is a fool, while one who accepts the other is a wise man-such a judgment shows that the person making it is ignorant of the conclusions of modern science, or that he has not advanced beyond the science of Ptolemy and Copernicus...
New You're arguing with an idiot.
It is difficult to come out of such an encounter looking good.

Drop it and walk away, say I.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I would but ...
I don't want him convincing other people of this stupidity and therefore for the moment I will continue the argument.

I would like to formulate a clear and convincing argument against this. I was hoping that the people here could help me.
New You can't control what other people do.
Although you have good intentions, you won't win.

If you want some arguments (that he'll reject) consider [link|http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH901.html|this] and [link|http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH910.html|this].

More details are [link|http://www.physicsdaily.com/physics/Modern_geocentrism|here]:

Non-falsifiability of geocentrism

If general relativity is true, then there is no way to prove that the Earth is not the immobile center of the universe. A theory that is not [link|http://www.physicsdaily.com/physics/Falsifiability|falsifiable] may be true, but it is not a scientific theory. Modern Geocentrists point out that since one can neither prove nor disprove either Geocentrism or acentrism, it is a matter of faith to hold the view of the Bible [and for Catholics and other apostolic Geocentrists] the Fathers, Popes, and Church, which they contend is Geocentrism.


HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New my answer to this specific
One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity.
please support this statement with a link to a scientist that some people have heard of that supports this conclusion.Also if the earth is stationary please explain, spring and fall and what forces would cause the sun to have such a north south orbit. Also explain what forms the jetstreams if the earth is stationary. Also explain the positional movements of the stars over recorded history, if they are revolving around us they should be in the same place as 2k years ago and match observations of that timeperiod.
thanx.
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New also why do toilets/huricanes/typhoons rotate in different
directions depending on hemisphere if we are stationary.
thanx,.
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Toilets don't depend on hemisphere
Neither do tornados. Both happen on far too small a scale for the coriolis forces to have a significant effect.

Hurricanes, prevailing winds, Foucault's pendulum etc depend on the hemisphere.

An incidental note. When arguing with someone with a bizarre view like this, they undoubtably know the standard list of objections that will be raised. After winning the rhetorical point about toilets, they prove that they know more than you do and then will disregard the rest of what you have to say. Thus common myths like this one make it easier for them to defend and maintain their own views.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New eh, flush your can, static flush your can
both report back which direction the swirl is turning. (could be hoary wives tail but I want proof!)
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Google for proof if you want
Or do it yourself with 5 different toilets. Better than 90% odds say that you'll find two that flush in opposite directions.

Here is a more subtle experiment. Fill a bathtub. Give it a few pushes with your hand one way. Drain it. Observe what happens. Repeat with pushing the other way. Observe what happens.

The direction water goes down the drain is the direction it was already rotating in the tub. This only matches the direction of the Earth's rotation by chance unless you're really careful to set things up just right. (If you leave the water for a day then reach in with your hand, your hand probably causes it to swirl the wrong way. Maybe if you left it in for a day then pulled the chain carefully you'd see the Earth's rotation. But in reality the effect is just too small to see.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I just remember when I became a frog
after crossing the tropic of capricorn the ships toilets did tend to swirl the opposite of north of the tropic of cancer.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Somebody was playing games on you
A given toilet swirls in a given direction based on the angle of the jets. This has an effect that completely overwhelms the Earth's rotation.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New having dug in the bowels of many a toilet
they dont have jets, they have a gravity feed, lift up the top of your toilet tank, flush and observe, that aint a jet. It would be some game to change the direction of water flow inside an entire frigate just to impress the credulous. Lets wait to see if static and meerkat flush clockwise or anticlockwise.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New It probably has more to do with the toilet design.
It may be that toilets in Australia have different swirling motions, but as Ben says, the Coriolis force is too weak to cause the toilet to behave differently on crossing the equator.

[link|http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm|Bad Coriolis].

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New again let static and meerkat pull the top off their tank
and ensure that it is a gravity feed like ours and see what direction clockwise or counter it goes. Im surprised that empiracle evidence is willing to be ignored in favor of google.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Sure. But ye canna change the laws of physics!
:-)

[link|http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~dvandom/Edu/newcor.html|Getting Around The Coriolis Force]:

5.2. Water Going The Wrong Way Down The Sink

In a kitchen sink, of course, speeds and time scales are much smaller than hours and miles. Water rushing down a drain flows at speeds on the order of a meter per second in most sinks, which are themselves less than a meter wide. Qualitatively, there doesn't seem to be much chance for deflection. Quantitatively, putting these numbers into Equation 1 results in an estimated change in rotation of only a fraction of a degree per second, and a very small fraction at that...less than an arc-second (1/3600th of a degree) per second over the course of the entire draining of the sink, ignoring additional effects caused by conservation of angular momentum and the like. Under extremely controlled conditions, this can cause water to flow out of a container counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere, but your kitchen sink is not so controlled. Things like leftover spin from filling the sink (even when the water looks still, it's rotating slowly for a long time after it seems to stop), irregularities in the construction of the basin, convection currents if the water is warmer or colder than the basin, and so forth, can affect the direction water goes down the sink. Any one of these factors is usually more than enough to overwhelm the small contribution of the Coriolis effect in your kitchen sink or bathtub. Research in the 1960s showed that if you do carefully eliminate these factors, the Coriolis effect can be observed1,2.

Water in the sink doesn't go far enough to trigger a noticeable north/south deflection. Most often, it simply spirals down the sink the way it went into the sink, and the same is true of things like the famous "demonstration" of the Coriolis effect shown at tourist traps along the Equator (especially since east/west deflection is absent!). Maybe there's a conspiracy to manufacture right-handed sinks in the Northern Hemisphere and left-handed sinks in the Southern Hemisphere? In any case, don't blame it on the Coriolis effect unless your sink is the size of a small ocean.


Even if it goes the other way down under, that doesn't mean it's due to the Coriolis effect (or, in other words, due to the Earth's rotation). It's not - the Coriolis effect is too weak in a sink or toilet unless everything is carefully controlled.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Perhaps it isn't obvious to you...
But I've had this discussion before, and did my research then. Why do you think that I'm so confident that if you look at multiple toilets you'll find ones that go opposite directions? Even a gravity toilet will have small imperfections that lead to the water flushing one way or another.

I've seen this for myself. I also suggested a more complex experiment for you to see it as well.

Why are you so supportive of the experimental method only when it is done by others?

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New You actually spent time researching this?
It's a TOILET!
New It's not just a toilet, it's a belief system.
Ben delights in testing such things and destroying myths. :-)
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #209581 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=209581|ICLRPD]
--
Steve
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #209709 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=209709|ICLRPD]
Save Fintlewoodlewix
New okay, we have 10 toilets in this building I will flush them
all. If I see just one counter clockwise flush I will retract.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #209554 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=209554|ICLRPD]
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Invalid
I just went and flushed mine, and a casual inspection of flow showed that all watter jetting down from the rim was aimed clockwise all the way around to insure there is a strong swirl. I would place bets that all American toilets are made just that way. It's possible some crank designer has done one with a counter-clockwise flow, but the Earth's spin has absolutely nothing to do with it.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Also invalid because ...
If the variations are between manufacturers, odds are all the ones in your building are the same anyway.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New We have a counter-clockwise one here.
Haven't tried the others.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New good enough I retract my statement about earth rotation
affecting toilet flow.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Actually, we can't perform that experiment.
If you go to [link|http://www.howstuffworks.com/|How Stuff Works] and navigate to [link|http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet.htm|How Toilets Work], you will find a description of a typical cistern and pan in North America (that is where the writer is located, after all). According to Marshall Brain's article, toilet pans completely empty upon flushing, then refill as the cistern is refilled. This is due to their being a feed from the cistern into the siphon as well as into the rim.

Australian toilets are not constructed to that design. When flushed, Australian toilets put all of the cistern water into the rim. The result is a continuous movement of water down the bowl and through the S-bend for some seconds. The pan does not empty and then refill. Coriolis doesn't have a chance.

Wade.
Save Fintlewoodlewix
New He falls apart at the third line
His first and second points are roughly correct. His mistake is in his third point.

Relativity does say that all frames of reference are equally valid. But this doesn't mean you should pick one and prefer it over others. In fact what it says is that there is never any reason to prefer one frame of reference over another except that it simplifies the problem in front of you.

The jump to the earth being motionless is a pure act of faith, with no scientific backing.

Jay
New He's an idiot
But he probably knows more about this than you do.

It is not the conclusion of science that when two objects are in motion around each other that it is always equally valid to say that A orbits B as it is to say that B orbits A. There are physical effects of rotation that are easily measured, and others have mentioned some. (Foucault's pendulum, the Jet Stream, coriolis forces...)

For a simple, common sense illustration of this, pick up a bucket of water and whirl it around your head. Ask whether you are going around the bucket or the bucket is going around you. His claim is that the two statements are equivalent, and clearly they are not.

Now, that said, there is some truth that he is mangling. That truth is that the laws of physics hold regardless of the coordinate system you use to describe what is going on. So you can pick any coordinate system that you choose, then be really careful about how you state the physics, and you can make all of the answers come out right. (To do it exactly right you need to introduce the concept of a "metric". There is no need to worry about the details though, suffice it to say that it can be done.)

But the coordinate system is completely and utterly meaningless! Switching coordinate systems is like switching between km and miles, it has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually happening, it just changes the language that we use to talk about it. The coordinate system is free to be changed exactly because it is meaningless.

For instance it is possible to measure how much an object is rotating or accelerating. This measurement does not depend on the coordinate system. Guess what! You find that the Earth rotates about once a day! (That's off by a few percent because in a day we also move partway through our orbit.) By contrast you find that there is a coordinate system that is still relative to the center of the Sun which is barely rotating at all! And in that coordinate system, the Earth goes around the Sun once a year. (And rotates about its axis a bunch more times.)

Furthermore he is wrong to say that this requires general relativity. The above fact is is a triviality that has been noticed since Rene Descartes invented Cartesian coordinates. When Foucault came up with his pendulum, he used the pendulum as a way of measuring a component of the rotation of a rotating coordinate system.

So why does he think that general relativity has anything to do with this? Well in general relativity once you introduce masses, there is no perfect coordinate system. In theories up to and including special relativity there are "inertial frames of reference", which is to say simple Cartesian coordinate systems in which objects that are still relative to the coordinate system stay still unless something pushes them. Generally people prefer working in these coordinate systems because the laws of physics get a lot simpler. But in general relativity there are no inertial frames of reference. You have to deal with the non-inertiality of your frame of reference.

However while no reference frame is perfect in general relativity, some reference frames are closer to being inertial than others. Working in those is still preferred, because the corrections to treating physics naively are much smaller and more manageable.

And, as you might guess, a geocentric coordinate system is a lot farther from being inertial than a heliocentric one.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Geocentrism - (bluke) - (41)
         other than moving to the religious forum sure - (boxley) - (1)
             I wasn't actually referring to that - (bluke)
         It's a bogus argument. - (Another Scott)
         Here is one of his responses ... - (bluke) - (28)
             You're arguing with an idiot. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                 I would but ... - (bluke) - (1)
                     You can't control what other people do. - (Another Scott)
             my answer to this specific - (boxley) - (22)
                 also why do toilets/huricanes/typhoons rotate in different - (boxley) - (21)
                     Toilets don't depend on hemisphere - (ben_tilly) - (20)
                         eh, flush your can, static flush your can - (boxley) - (19)
                             Google for proof if you want - (ben_tilly) - (18)
                                 I just remember when I became a frog - (boxley) - (17)
                                     Somebody was playing games on you - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                         having dug in the bowels of many a toilet - (boxley) - (15)
                                             It probably has more to do with the toilet design. - (Another Scott) - (14)
                                                 again let static and meerkat pull the top off their tank - (boxley) - (13)
                                                     Sure. But ye canna change the laws of physics! - (Another Scott)
                                                     Perhaps it isn't obvious to you... - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                         You actually spent time researching this? - (bionerd) - (3)
                                                             It's not just a toilet, it's a belief system. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
                                                                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (static)
                                                         okay, we have 10 toilets in this building I will flush them - (boxley) - (5)
                                                             ICLRPD (new thread) - (drewk)
                                                             Invalid - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                                 Also invalid because ... - (drewk)
                                                             We have a counter-clockwise one here. - (admin) - (1)
                                                                 good enough I retract my statement about earth rotation - (boxley)
                                                     Actually, we can't perform that experiment. - (static)
             He falls apart at the third line - (JayMehaffey)
             He's an idiot - (ben_tilly)
         Am I in the Dark Ages or something? - (warmachine) - (1)
             You've jumbled the story - (ben_tilly)
         Yeah, here in California we have the Flat Earth Society**. - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
             part I dont understand is if at sealevel the horizon - (boxley) - (5)
                 He believes in a geocentric universe, not a flat Earth -NT - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     was responding to Andrews flat earth stuff -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                         Yeah, it's called 'topic drift' . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                         Oops. - (ben_tilly)
                 Hey, ask them, not me . . . - (Andrew Grygus)

If this chat room were a game, it would be "half-life".
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