You're wrong.

Post #209,292 by CRConrad 6/1/05 2:18:48 AM Reply	You're wrong. No, I don't know why; I used to think like you. But everybody -- AdminScott, PeeWee, Idunnowhoelse, prettymucheveryoneIguess -- tells me I'm wrong, so you must be too. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #209,296 by tuberculosis 6/1/05 2:33:49 AM 8/21/07 5:51:37 AM Reply	No, we are the right ones I will not rely on lame assed tail dragging pixellated event dropping, layout munging slow launching Java desktop applications for anything remotely important. Certainly not to manage my money. I will also devote time to writing letters to the fools trying to sell this crapware informing them that they are not saving money by shipping LCD software that is "written once and ugly everywhere". Rather, they are losing sales. Mine in particular. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:51:37 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,424 by ben_tilly 6/1/05 6:04:37 PM Reply	I believe that you just said... that you won't trust the software because the eye-candy isn't good enough. In that case, you might be a Macintosh user. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,426 by tuberculosis 6/1/05 6:18:34 PM 8/21/07 5:54:10 AM Reply	I also mentioned speed Double click java app icon and watch the icon appear in the toolbar and begin to bounce and bounce and bounce at which point an animated pogo stick appears superimposed on the icon letting you know that the icon is having a great time and isn't likely to stop bouncing anytime soon. At this point the cursor becomes the rainbow hued spinning beachball of death. A flower blooms somewhere in central america. And then suddenly a minute passed. Followed by another minute. At some point a window opens and draws in stately fashion - as though hand painted by a tender child holding a paintbrush in a clenched fist. It is just an image of a window though. Not quite dead and yet not fully alive yet either. Eventually the rainbow cursor evaporates and little events begin trickling towards the window. plink, plonk. Then a spasm of flashing and activating/deactivating caused by all of the events you idly created while mousing around waiting for this very moment. And then the application is finally, at last, fully launched. Ready to corrupt your data and vomit NullPointerExceptions all over the system logs. This is the Java Swing Experience in all its glory. I'll pass. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:54:10 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,430 by ben_tilly 6/1/05 7:07:58 PM Reply	Moore solves that one I'm hardly a Java fan either. But it is possible for a Java application to be useable and to have acceptable performance. (Particularly on modern hardware.) And eye-candy problems do not always indicate that the software is bad. While most Java programmers are crap, there are some good ones and the ratio between the two doesn't seem significantly different from what it is in most mainstream languages. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,453 by drewk 6/1/05 9:40:23 PM Reply	IOW While most Java programmers are crap, there are some good ones and the ratio between the two doesn't seem significantly different from what it is in most mainstream languages. While most Java programmers are crap, most all programmers are crap. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #209,455 by folkert 6/1/05 9:56:21 PM Reply	Ding, Ding, Ding! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #209,476 by ben_tilly 6/1/05 11:38:56 PM Reply	The traditional figure is 90% :-) I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,110 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:51:06 PM 8/21/07 6:10:08 AM Reply	That number is low "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:08 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,477 by broomberg 6/1/05 11:47:53 PM Reply	Absolutely
Post #209,514 by CRConrad 6/2/05 3:28:22 AM Reply	That's just not elegant (in the Jargon file sense.) Sure, Moore solves that. Give him a bit moore (Heh) time, and he'll solve you writing it in frigging COBOL. That still doesn't make COBOL a "neat" language. Ben notes, though: But it is possible for a Java application to be useable and to have acceptable performance. Yeah, sure, I suppose -- to shift your emphasis a little -- it is possible... But the ones I've seen, they don't actually live up to that possibility. So for me, Java DOES, in point of actual on-the-ground FACT, suck. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,107 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:49:02 PM 8/21/07 6:09:59 AM Reply	I think there is something architecturally wrong with Swing for its launch time to be so bad. Once it is up, it is so-so. Not great, often not awful either. It does look ugly next to the rest of the Mac UI though. Menu placement remains fiddly - you never know if the menubars will show up on the window or the top of the screen. The other point I'd have to make is "where are the good java apps"? Everytime this question come up people just bring up a bunch of dev tools. Eclipse (which isn't Swing BTW), IDEA, NetBeans. Great big old developer self love festival. Then there is the lotus improv clone - very slow to launch and ugly and alien looking besides. There's my data modeler app - which left such a bad taste in my mouth that I have no desire to work on a swing app again. Probably 40% of the code is to deal with swing widgets tossing null pointer exceptions because they don't have a model object just now because - hey, the user hasn't created a model. If Swing was a good development environment, we'd be up to our asses in apps by now. The old "well its kind of new" doesn't cut it anymore. Its not new - its friggen ancient and still nobody wants to bother writing for it because it is so fiddly to get basic stuff working predictably. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:09:59 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,155 by admin 6/6/05 10:48:15 PM Reply	There is... ... but you're still full of crap. :-) To turn down Moneydance because "It's Java". Quit making excuses. Launch time is better than the equivalent C/C++ app, and the interface is better. But that's outside your precept, so you don't bother addressing it. Color me disappointed. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,162 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 11:25:03 PM 8/21/07 6:10:56 AM Reply	Dupe Friggin plastic monolith stink pot cabin cruiser has pulled into the dock next to me and I think is beginning to block my signal. :-( "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis June 6, 2005, 11:31:15 PM EDT Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:56 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,163 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 11:25:13 PM 8/21/07 6:10:58 AM Reply	I last looked at it 2-3 years ago` some dweeb at JavaOne handed me a disk - I took it home - it sucked. Half the labels were clipped wrong or bleeding onto the next widget. I imagine its better now but the initial look was so bad I haven't bothered to look again. .... OK so I downloaded it and poked around. Its improved a lot but is still obviously a Java app (there's not enough space around the text labels - layout looks crammed). I'll give you that it launched fairly quickly on the second launch. I'm not sure why the second one was improved - first launch was abysmal - taking roughly ten times as long as Quicken to fire up. Quicken is fine and I don't have any inclination to "port" my data. Call me when they have one click import and it all just works. I dumped 2005's data as a QIF file and imported it and a lot of stuff was missing (like bank info). Also wasn't clear that I could do online bill pay or transfers - didn't see menu items for it. So I'll give you that this app - while not as nice as native, is one of the least sucky Java apps I've seen. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:58 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,169 by admin 6/6/05 11:57:59 PM Reply	Doesn't look like that on my machine. Looks just like a native app. And it's pretty fast even on the first start. What are you running it on? Minis aren't exactly known for their speed. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,252 by tuberculosis 6/7/05 1:04:47 PM 8/21/07 6:12:50 AM Reply	Powerbook G6 Powerbook G4 + 1G(Hz) + 1G(Bytes) = G6 (according to my HS algebra teacher). Machine is plenty fast and never seems to break a sweat. I suspect initial VM warmup is extra expensive but is then cached somehow. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:12:50 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,465 by admin 6/1/05 10:31:55 PM 6/1/05 11:15:09 PM Reply	Jesus you're full of crap sometimes, Todd. I loaded it up. About 1s to get a splash screen, then another 5 seconds to get through the various "this is an eval" and licensing dialogs (95% user time). Then another 5 seconds to create a new profile, save it, and quit. anderson@spork:~/dnl/md/moneydance$ time ./moneydance loading platform helper... real 0m3.056s user 0m2.172s sys 0m0.167s That's a full program load, loading the new profile (or whatever they call it), then pressing ctrl-q to quit as soon as I see it's loaded. This is an AMD 2500. Not particularly fast, not particularly slow. Now, comparing this to Gnucash, doing the same thing: anderson@spork:~$ time gnucash real 0m5.443s user 0m3.139s sys 0m0.106s Boy, that "C" language must be really slow, if it's that much slower than Java. And this is after I've cached it. The first time I ran it, 5 seconds to a splash, and another 5 to the loaded screen. The first time I ran Moneydance, it was just as fast as the other times. Typically I'm not going to have my finance app cached, so I'm sitting there for the 10 seconds every time with Gnucash. On the Mini (1.4Ghz G4), it's about 5 seconds to get do the same thing in Moneydance. In comparison, iCal takes 3 seconds to start, NeoOffice 10s, and Camino 6s. Beyond the speed differences, Gnucash has a UI that can charitably be described as "ass" in comparison to that of Moneydance. Guess which UI is pixelated, and which one has smooth text and nice widgets? And the Moneydance widgets sure as hell look like native Mac widgets to me. Actually, some of them are nicer. The checkboxes, for example, while they look just like the Mac widgets, have a nice background halo when in focus that the Mac widgets don't. This knee-jerk asshattery of yours is beneath you. Get over it. Shitty programs come in all languages. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin June 1, 2005, 10:41:38 PM EDT Edited by admin June 1, 2005, 11:15:09 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,701 by jb4 6/2/05 6:46:35 PM 6/2/05 6:47:40 PM Reply	Yeah...but what do you REALLY think? ;-) Heck from that tirade, I'd almost think you'd approve of C++ before Java! Say it ain't so, Todd! (OK, so maybe an application written in C++ before one written in Java? I'm trying to throw you a bone here....) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 June 2, 2005, 06:47:40 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,049 by lincoln 6/6/05 1:32:15 PM Reply	ICLRDP (new thread) Created as new thread #210048 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210048\|ICLRDP] lincoln "Until the revolution, we are only useful for our private information and our money." [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #209,300 by pwhysall 6/1/05 2:53:57 AM Reply	If it does the job correctly within the time allowed... ...it's good enough. Todd's just indulging in broad-brush all-Java-apps-are-Swing snobbery. Todd: A challenge for you. Azureus is the #1 BitTorrent client. It's Java (SWT). Please direct me to the obviously-much-better Cocoa equivalent. Oh look! It doesn't exist! Shall I cripple myself in the name of UI purity, or shall I take the pragmatic view, which is to use Azureus until such time as a better (i.e. Cocoa) mousetrap comes along? Personally, I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,405 by tuberculosis 6/1/05 4:13:25 PM 8/21/07 5:53:47 AM Reply	Key phrase: within the time allowed Anyhow, have you tried these? [link\|http://sarwat.net/bittorrent/\|http://sarwat.net/bittorrent/] [link\|http://www.bitsonwheels.com/\|http://www.bitsonwheels.com/] Source for both is available - I'm not hip to bt (meaning to read up and figure it out) and have no idea what makes a client good or not. Interested to know what Assorifice does better than these. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:53:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,481 by pwhysall 6/2/05 12:23:55 AM 6/2/05 12:28:31 AM Reply	"Assorifice" Stop being a knobber, Todd. And anyway, two questions spring to mind: 1. What kind of crap-arse Mac do you have, anyway? I run a 1GHz G4 with 512MB and Azureus's performance is fine. (And it's not Swing, either, you arse. But let's not let the facts get in the way of ranting, eh?) 2. Even if it takes an extra five or ten seconds to start, what were you going to do with that time? Did you have a five or ten second appointment that you missed? Seriously. Have a word with yourself over this. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall June 2, 2005, 12:28:31 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,109 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:50:07 PM 8/21/07 6:10:05 AM Reply	You didn't answer my question (new thread) Created as new thread #210108 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210108\|You didn't answer my question] "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:05 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,516 by CRConrad 6/2/05 3:40:29 AM 6/2/05 3:43:13 AM Reply	So if it doesn't, are we THEN allowed to say it's crap? Sorry, but my definition of "does the job correctly" is, when I run an app under Windows, it behaves like a standard Windows application[]. You know, like, pressing Tab takes you from one control to another (preferably in some sensible order), pressing Space or Enter activates it, and so on; stuff like that. Most Java apps I've seen -- annd ALL the ones I've been forced by circumstances to use regularly -- SUCK in this regard; they do _N_O_T_ "do the job correctly". And, frankly, whether that is due to "Swing" or some other shitty Java library, I neither know nor give a shit about. Why the fuck should I?!? It's not as if these apps throw up a bunch of "Proudly presenting: The Swing runtime library!" dialogues when you start them, now is it? What they DO find worth mentioning, though, is that they run on Java. [Edit: Corrected screwed-up word order] So why, exactly, should I not* conclude that "Java" sucks? []: Oh, I freely admit the WORST application I know in this regard isn't written in Java at all. What amazes me, though, is that this shit has been around for so long, and been equally bad all the time, and one would think everybody, including the developers, KNOWS this... And yet, the developers continue churning out new versions that suck just as bad -- and perhaps even worse, idiot CEIEIOS continue to buy* frigging Lotus Notes! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown] Edited by CRConrad June 2, 2005, 03:43:13 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,520 by pwhysall 6/2/05 4:19:29 AM Reply	While we're hand-waving... ...most Java apps I've used (including the ones I use daily) DO behave themselves WRT the UI conventions of the platform they're running on. Oh? What apps are they? Details, details. (Eclipse and Azureus, mainly. Both are SWT. Both follow Windows conventions on Windows, Aqua conventions on OS X, and GTK+ conventions on Linux) I bet you're referring to the Oracle management tools. To be honest, they'd suck donkey cock even if they were written in Objective-C using Cocoa and Aqua. Don't blame the platform for the fact that Oracle can 't write software with a sane GUI for toffee. Put up or shut up; it's fun to diss Java, because it's currently un-cool, but hell. The alternative is dotnet and/or Win32. Pick yer poison. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,691 by ben_tilly 6/2/05 5:11:30 PM Reply	That's a false dilemma [link\|http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html\|http://www.nizkor.or...alse-dilemma.html] There are more viable alternatives than the ones that you present. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,697 by admin 6/2/05 5:39:33 PM Reply	Not in most corporations. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #209,699 by ben_tilly 6/2/05 6:21:02 PM Reply	Can you back that assertion up? My personal experience strongly suggests that plenty of corporations are willing to look at C, C++, or LAMP depending on the project. The language popularity site that I found not long ago suggests that this my experience is not unrepresentative. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,700 by admin 6/2/05 6:35:37 PM Reply	If you're doing Windows programming Then C and C++ == Win32. If you're talking about Web projects, then the choices for many companies (certainly the ones I've worked at) is reduced to Java or .NET. MySQL and PHP are non-starters here, and only a fool would use C or C++ for a web project. And regardless, you proved my assertion already: "plenty of corporations", which implies not all corporations, which is exactly my assertion that it depends on the company. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #209,703 by ben_tilly 6/2/05 7:18:20 PM Reply	Double check your assertion You asserted most companies, not some companies. That companies exist which make the choice you describe I do not dispute. I'm questioning whether it is really most that won't accept anything other than the alternatives that Peter suggests. As for C and C++, it is trivially possible to do Windows programming with C and C++. It is also possible to write portable applications with them. I strongly suspect that you're right though, most people doing GUIs with C and C++ are writing Windows code. (Of course plenty of people do plenty of non-GUI work in those languages. I'm not sure whether we're discussing the options for software development as initially thought Peter meant, or options for GUI interfaces as I now suspect Peter meant.) Historically, of course, the dominant language for small business applications was VB. But my experience and comments from others suggest that a lot of things that used to be done that way are now being done as small web applications, mostly using PHP or Perl. And they pop up in enough organizations that I'd question whether most corporations are willing to consider doing stuff in something other than Java or .NET or win32. (Even though most of what they do may be in those platforms.) When it comes to general software development, of course, even if the official line is just the major platforms, it is amazing at how often something else (eg Perl) seems to sneak in... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,827 by admin 6/4/05 9:33:06 AM Reply	Yep, my bad. The point still stands, though. In my experience it's most companies. And from what I've seen and heard from others, it's most companies. Your own experience, and that of many here, is likely skewed by the fact that you won't work for a company that doesn't consider alternatives to begin with. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #209,828 by boxley 6/4/05 10:16:25 AM Reply	having spent time around some large telco's and currently working for a 22K employee (large) there is a LOT more pearl than people may realize. It is a common message inter application glue. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,829 by ChrisR 6/4/05 10:36:21 AM Reply	Speaking of pearl... ...what's up with [link\|http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000400.html\|Parrot] these days?
Post #209,830 by Another Scott 6/4/05 11:43:03 AM Reply	He doesn't sound like a happy warrior.
Post #209,845 by ben_tilly 6/4/05 5:50:28 PM Reply	s/pearl/Perl. As for the rest... I'm not sure of Dan's exact reasons for being upset. I know that he's been irritated in the past at people who hang around and try to look cool while doing nothing. I know that he's been running the project for 5 years, and that is a long time to do anything. I know that the system they are trying to build suffers from some second syndrome tendancies. Parrot is not widely used anywhere, of course, but according to reports that I've seen it is mature enough to build real languages on it. But I have to admit (as someone who hasn't played with it) that I'd question whether I'd want to run production stuff on it. Nobody seems to be using it for production yet, and periodically there are major design changes. The core Perl developer community is not the easiest to interact with. As with all open source projects, you take what you get, which isn't always what you want. I think that it is better than it was a few years ago when p5p was a constant flamewar. The project itself is still ticking along. See [link\|http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/p6pdigest/20050602.html\|http://www.perl.com/...est/20050602.html] for details. Atrijus Tang suggests that a useable Perl 6 could be real by Christmas. Of course the way that it finally happened is 90% due to Atrijus, Haskell, and various design documents that people wanted to make real. It is perhaps 10% due to Parrot. (Parrot is only one of several back ends, though hopefully it will be the best-performing.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,113 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:56:24 PM 8/21/07 6:10:13 AM Reply	That shoulda been a new thread "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:13 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,838 by ben_tilly 6/4/05 3:34:16 PM Reply	You're trying to get my goat, aren't you? Perl, not pearl! I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,839 by boxley 6/4/05 3:38:30 PM Reply	one is a jewel and the other a shellfish hemorrhoid? All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,030 by jb4 6/6/05 11:16:21 AM Reply	One is a jewel, and the other a kind of knitting? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #210,111 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 6:53:50 PM 8/21/07 6:10:11 AM Reply	Fools we is I guess One guess what our app server is written in? "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:10:11 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,156 by admin 6/6/05 10:49:15 PM Reply	Ugh. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,166 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 11:29:52 PM 8/21/07 6:11:02 AM Reply	Makes sense if you think about it Basically, our "platform" is almost an OS totally devoted to networking, process distribution, and caching. For OS level work, you use industrial strength tools. There's a reason we consistently get you a page tailored just for you in under 2 seconds. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:11:02 AM EDT Expand All History

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