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New Skiing down the slippery slope... doing triple axles in fact
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51671-2005Apr13.html|http://www.washingto...71-2005Apr13.html] ...

But the prosecutors' refusal goes far toward supplying a definition. The refusal implies that any abnormality can qualify as a serious handicap because seriousness is determined not by its impact on the disabled person's life chances but by the parents' reluctance to be inconvenienced by it. How else is one to understand abortion as an alternative to surgery that corrects cleft lips and palates?

In Britain, more babies with Down syndrome are aborted than are allowed to be born. In America, more than 80 percent of the babies diagnosed prenatally with Down syndrome are aborted. This is dismaying to, among others, the American Association of People with Disabilities, whose premise is that "disability is a natural part of the human experience."

The AAPD worries that increasingly sophisticated prenatal genetic testing technologies will mean that parents who are told their expected babies are less than perfect "will experience pressures to terminate their pregnancies from medical professionals and insurers." The worry is not groundless.


I realise that this article is about Great Britain but think it applies to the US. Looking for consistency... Is euthanasia for old people (even those with health insurance) legal here (in the United States)? They, at least, have the ability to quantify the "quality of their own lives", yet their opinions are disregarded if they choose that they no longer wish to live. I spent many years with my grandmother who, in her nineties after her stroke and ensuing blindness and feebleness, spent years telling me how much pain she was in and how she no longer had a purpose to her life and that she had lived a full life and that it was time for her to die.

As well, are the views of people who go into a vegetative state without living wills and express they do not want to live if they go into said state - are their views important/valid? When I watched the Schiavo case, I was struck by how many people were willing to talk about the sanctity of life and completely disregard the concept that maybe she actually did state (as an adult and of sound mind) that if she were in a vegetative state and had no hope of recovery that she didn't wish to live. Where are these same people when the 80% of diagnosed Down Syndrome children are aborted (with no vote/no chance to appeal)? Where are the vigils? Where are the Teevee preachers?

The logic is basically, if you are unborn, others are qualified to judge "the quality of your life", but once born others (and you yourself) are not qualified to judge the "quality of life, even your own"?

The concept of "quality of life" cuts at the very heart of religion, metaphysics and philosophy. These types of issues tend to be politicized, (I never thought I would quote a George Will article - yet; he is a parent of a Down Syndrome child), but my hope is that all would have the ability to separate out the "political" and to understand that there is a fundamental question that needs to be addressed - "Who is anyone, be they doctor, lawyer, insurance agent, parent; to judge viability or quality of life other than their own?" And how do legislate that morality? If it is an ethical question, what ethics should be applied?

As the parent of a child with Down Syndrome, I am happy to report that my daughter's "quality of life" is a hell of a lot better than most anyone else I know of, including me... She is progressing beautifully and laughs and hugs and loves and views the world as a mysterious and wonderful place. How many of us still do?
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Questions
Neighbor has a child who is severly retarded (pc mentally challenged)
He is 20+, with the mental capacity of a 4 year old. Is kept in an institution during the week, home some weekend. Kept fenced in to keep from wandering away. Looking at him he is happy and carefree. What's his QOL?

Article in paper about woman who went into early labor, around 20 wks. Baby wasn't able to live on it's own, so machines did everything for it. Now two years later, child needs hearing aids, glasses, and has other assorted ailments. Child is "happy" and "carefree". What's this child QOL?

EVERY living being is "happy" when that's all they know. Even the villagers in the Ugandan villages I visited were happy, even though the annual family income was between $100 - $1000 (think Nat Geo photos).

Should a potential parent or even the community be required to accept the responsibility of raising a severly handicapped child? Whose QOL is more important? That of the fetus (won't go into the discussion of when the fetus becomes a child) or that of the parents/family?

Should the hospital be required/parents forced to "save at any cost" a fetus that is expelled from the woman's body?

Should parents be forced into bankruptcy to cover the medical costs incurred by a severely handicapped child?

Should parents be forced to choose QOL between children?

As you stated: Just a few thoughts.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Answers...
1. Good
2. Good
2.5 What's money got to do with anything? Seriously...
3. My point exactly - define SEVERELY handicapped my friend...
4. Your write "Whose QOL is more important? That of the fetus (won't go into the discussion of when the fetus becomes a child) or that of the parents/family?" which again, is what this article and I am talking about... First of all, since when is raising a child convenient to the parents - and go into the discussion of when a fetus becomes a child, it doesn't pertain one damned bit to the discussion at hand. The reason it doesn't pertain is that you can abort THESE fetuses (feti?) up until birth and EVEN THEN, it still doesn't have anything to do with this discussion about the WORTH of the child be they born or unborn. Secondly, 80% of the children who's parents find out their child has Down Syndrome beforehand abort (extremely conservative estimates). Down Syndrome is not necessarily or even often SEVERELY HANDICAPPED. My daughter, for example, (although only three) has an estimated IQ of between 75 and 85 (far fucking greater than most of the posters on this board! ;-) ) She didn't walk until the last few months. She only speaks about 100 words... I'm willing to wait. I mean, what's the big hurry?
4b. Taking your points, how do you reconcile your views with the elderly? You skipped that one (which was a major point of my initial rant, don't wish to comment?) They are a burden to our health care system and non-productive and not only that, unlike most retarded folks, they ain't even happy... Is it that we just like to torture these fucking old disabled people until their money runs out? What's their quality of life? AND, AND unless the ravages of age don't allow anymore - they can VOICE THEIR OPINION AND WISHES... Ditto for "should their heirs be forced into no inheritance and or they themselves be forced into bankruptcy?" I mean, do you see a just a little hypocrisy here?

AND, since you like hypothetical questions, what happens if your perfectly normal child gets hit by a car at two? Ah, let's not go TO EXTREME CASES LIKE SOME OTHERS DO, how about if he/she gets one of the hundreds of infectious diseases that cause a plethora of handicaps such as mental retardation, lameness, blindness, and so on. Or slides down a slide headfirst or trips or skis into a tree or... or... or... Do you off them there on the spot? He's going to be a huge financial drain on his parents and, God forbid, society... He may still be happy but he ain't going to be productive... And what kind of quality of life will the poor bastard have being blind in a seeing world. Etc. etc. etc. A little consistency is all I'm asking for.

My biggest complaint about all of this however is this... what happens if the parents of a "handicapped child in the womb" are misinformed or just plain dumbasses like most people. Or, without the rhetoric, what happens if they are smart people with no experience and or bad information (whether intentionally given or not)? Do you see that maybe insurance companies might have an agenda that may not be necessarily impartial?

As it turns out, the day after I wrote this, I read that there is a bill in the US congress now that will limit the amount of self serving disinformation that is given to parents when they find out their expectant children have a disability. It is heartening to those of us who have been blessed to associate with children and adults with disabilities. FWIW, society needs these children and adults very much, if for no other reason, to keep sight on our own humanity. Unless, of course, they are Democrats or Republicans...
Just a few more thoughts,

Danno

"Seems the nearer your destination the more you're slip sliding away"
Paul Simon
Expand Edited by danreck April 17, 2005, 01:25:07 AM EDT
New This has gotten me all riled up
I know there are a lot of political and ethical issues to look at, but to me it boils down to this: you cant play God. This is your child and you take what you are given and you do it gracefully and lovingly. Here's my analogy. Say you were planning a trip to Paris. You've been planning your trip and in your mind it's the ultimate perfect vacation. At the last minute you find out you're not going to Paris. You're going to Holland instead. You're disappointed and angry, but you go. Once in Holland you discover it's a wonderful place and you end up having the time of your life. Had you not been willing to go to Holland, you would've missed out on all this.

My son is a "special needs" child. He has neurodevelopmental delays which have resulted in his fine and gross motor functioning being way below the norm. His brain cant organize the sensory input it receives. Many things are a challenge for him. He may not be Paris (but really, who is?) but I wouldnt have it any other way. He's my son.

My best friend's son was diagnosed with a brain tumor 3 years ago. While removing the tumor they damaged his optic nerve and now he is blind. He is 14 years old. He is a delightful and smart young man. He just cant see. His parents didnt ask for this. He didnt ask for this. You have to cope with what life gives you.

My father had MS. He was a quadrapeligic for the last 15 years of his life. He was trapped in a body that wouldnt move. His mind was still sharp but he couldnt talk or move so he couldnt communicate. He died when he was 53, a month before my son was born.

You dont ask for the hardships you are given but if you are accepting you discover that Holland isnt such a bad place. In fact, it's pretty good.
New I used to go to Amsterdam every chance I got
when I was stationed in Germany... I love your analogy, EXCEPT who would ever want to go to France?

:-0

Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Re: I used to go to Amsterdam every chance I got
OT, except re danno's already OT: Amsterdam struck me as a poor advertisement for social libertarianism (and I'm a big fan of this stateside), but on the basis of, I admit, just a few visits there, who wouldn't want to go to France? No irony intended here. Danno's question sounds like "Who on earth would want chocolate ice cream?"

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Okay, so I forgot the sign...
The slippery one. I still get a big charge out of "freedom fries" and so on. And speaking of "slippery", that brings closer to the initial premise of this thread. Kidding aside, I went to Paris three times and had an excellent time on every trip. I also had the pleasure of visiting Marseille and touring the wine region. The architecture in France is magnificent and I found the people to be gracious hosts.

Amsterdam has no historical reason to be a good advertisement for social libertarianism. They have historically been progressive by European standards, but can also trace their medieval history through the Roman Catholic church. All this aside, I found Amsterdam to be a "fun" city, especially for young adults. They are permissive in areas where the US is not - namely regarding sex, drugs and rock and roll. Oh, and the Reich's museum and Ann Frank's house and on and on can give someone more than enough to do during the day...
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Moi, SVP



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New My $0.02.
My older brother has Autistism or Asperger's Syndrome. My younger brother is mentally retarded. Unfortunately, these conditions don't have genetic tests yet, so diagnosis is more of an art than a science. And even with a diagnoisis that often means little more than they have a name for it. :-( I've done some reading and considering of issues like these, but have to admit that I know little about Down Syndrome.

My earlier impression was that it was often accompanied by other serious birth defects, but the things I've read about it this morning do not mention that.

While I sympathize with Will and understand his concern, I would not take his comments on the UK and US studies of Down Syndrome at face value. His column is not intended to present a balanced view of the issue, but rather to convince others that his view is correct. I would want to know more about these studies before I could be convinced by him.

Whenever abortion is involved it becomes a defining characteristic of the issue for many people. Similarly for euthenasia.

I come down on these issues a little differently. I think people must have the ability to control their reproduction. Information about STDs, reproductive health, etc., should be available to everyone as part of health classes in schools starting before puberty. Contraception should be available to everyone who is sexually active.

Abortion should be available as a last-resort contraception method. I can't imagine anyone wanting to have an abortion as a first choice, but it needs to be available. "Morning after" pills need to be available with minimal restrictions as well (e.g. perhaps behind a pharmacy counter but no prescription required). The availablity of abortion after viability is a little more complicated for me. I think it should still be available but its use should be exceedingly rare.

I have no children and probably never will. I think it's wrong to try to select characteristics of children (especially gender) though selective termination. But I think that is exceedingly rare. Such cases should not determine the outcome of the debate, IMHO. But I do think that it's ultimately the mother's choice whether she thinks she can care for a child with severe problems and whether she is willing to go through with the pregnancy. Adoption must not be an imposed solution, IMO.

There was a long, heart-rending story in the Washington Post magazine last weekend - [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28673-2005Apr6?language=printer|Hard Labor] - about a couple who had strong disagreements about whether to have a child (they already named Leila) diagnosed with HPE:

There was finally a name for Leila's condition: holoprosencephaly (HPE). Her brain had failed to divide and separate into two distinct hemispheres. About one baby in 5,000 to 10,000 is born with HPE, according to the Carter Centers for Brain Research in Holoprosencephaly and Related Malformations, a consortium of research hospitals and universities that includes the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda. But because most HPE pregnancies end in miscarriage, HPE may actually affect as many as 1 in 200 pregnancies. Of the fetuses that make it to delivery, very few survive past six months.

Children born with HPE are besieged by physical problems. Their eyes may not develop properly. They may even have just one eye, centered on their forehead. They may have no nose, or a flat, single-nostril nose, or a nose on their forehead. They may have a small head, excessive fluid in the brain, mental retardation, epilepsy and abnormalities in various organ systems.

The vast majority who survive beyond birth cannot eat or breathe on their own, or speak, walk or sit up. They can have frequent and severe seizures, which can wipe out everything that they have managed to learn. Perhaps the only saving grace: Kids with this affliction seem to smile and laugh often.


Leila was born two months premature, weighted 3 pounds 3 ounces. She died less than an hour after birth. :-(



I think the Schiavo case was different from an elderly person near the end of their life. My view is that Terri died in 1990 but her body was kept alive. An elderly person who is slowly declining is still the person they were years before, but of diminished capacity. Respecting Terri's expressed wishes has little to say about euthenasia, IMO.

That said, I do think that people whose bodies manage to keep trundling on but who are clearly miserable should have the option of dying on their own terms. Why should suicide only be available to those who are able to do it? The question is, how should such a policy be constructed to protect those who have become more of a burden (perceived or real) on others than on themselves? I don't know if there's a good answer to that, but just because we can't make a perfect policy doesn't mean that it shouldn't be available.

In short, I don't think of these things as "quality of life" arguments. I think it's more a "personal liberty" argument. It's several things that get jumbled together once abortion and "right to life" politics get mixed in.

My $0.02.

Luck with your daughter! She sounds like a joy. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Your $.02 is worth about a million bucks
and I thank you for your extremely insightful reply. I know we "threaded" on this a while ago and I'm getting redundant. That said, I am not advocating any policy regarding abortion rights, etc. I still believe it should be the choice of the parents. What I do object to is that most parents are woefully uninformed on these issues when a diagnosis like this comes about, even assuming that they can be objective at such an emotional time.

I'm all about building awareness. I want to spare the 80% the guilt of not bringing some of these children to term because they were ill or misinformed about what many of these syndromes (Down, autism, MS, Cerebral Palsey, etc.) actually entail. In my heart of hearts, I know that had my wife had amnio done, I would have lobbied long and hard to abort my daughter. Go to [link|http://www.nd.edu/~dreck|http://www.nd.edu/~dreck] and check her out...

I find it extremely interesting as well that an event like this shows the humanity of even political hacks such as George Will, you know...
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Quibbles
I do not want to see the Morning After Pill to be handed out over the counter.

Popular rumor notwithstanding, it has side effects and is not entirely effective. People should not get in the habit of using it routinely. Plus there are STDs which it does not help with. These things make it important in my opinion that people have a discussion with a doctor before getting one.

About gender selection, while it may be rare in the USA, it is not rare in other countries. For instance in India and China it has become so common that there are serious imbalances in the number of young men and women. Enough so to make being a member of the rare sex quite valuable. While I deplore the dynamics that lead to this, I expect that in a couple of generations societies will adapt and we won't see these wide imbalances any more.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New People have to be able to make up their own minds
Thats it. Not government's job to push either way. You have to decide what you can take. If you can't take it, don't do it. There are 100% healthy children born to people who can't cope with the stress of newborns and shake them to death. Young girls giving birth in public restrooms and dumping the babies in the trash.

So you're pregnant. Can you do this? Should you proceed? Until a baby is carried max term and born, you need to be able to bail. If you find out that the child is going to be more than you can take, should you proceed anyhow?

I have a cousin. She has 3 kids. The oldest is 9 and has been diagnosed bipolar. The two younger children model their behavior on the oldest and he is prone to violent outbursts, rebellion, screaming, suicidal tendencies, and threatens the lives of his parents. Their house is a nightmare and my cousin and her husband are considering splitting the marriage and the family so one that can focus on the special needs child and the other two can be raised by the other with some normalcy. What would you do? Dare you judge them? It appears to be an impossible situation.

Do what you need to do and don't judge others for doing the same.

Sheesh.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New You are entitled to your opinion
My opinion is that a fetus is not a person. While I accept that disability is part of the experience of life, so is disease. My willingness to promote nature doesn't include spreading plague, and doesn't include forcing people to have severely disabled children when there is a choice.

Sometimes there isn't a choice. For instance my nephew got meningitis in the first few months of life, and was not diagnosed until it was too late for his vision. :-(The symptoms in young babies are very hard to detect.)-: He is legally blind - his eyes work fine but his brain can't properly process what they say. I love him, but his life is going to be a lot harder than it would have been if he hadn't gotten sick.

But when there is, if a fetus is 3 months along and Down's is detected and the parents do not feel prepared to cope, I personally don't see that it is wrong to abort that fetus and try to make a healthier one.

Guess what my personal choice would be in that situation?

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ob: Cosby
I brought you to into this world, and I can take you out of it, and then make another one that looks just like you!
New on my last (I hope child)
they did an amniotic fluid check because my wife was over 35. I told her, dont tell me the results, I dont want to know. Luckily everything was fine.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New It's a very hard decision...
When you write, "But when there is, if a fetus is 3 months along and Down's is detected and the parents do not feel prepared to cope, I personally don't see that it is wrong to abort that fetus and try to make a healthier one." I have to agree basically, but it makes me cringe a bit as well. As more advanced techniques for diagnosising not only birth defects, but also general characteristics, I believe that our ethics must try to advance with our technologies. As I've stated many times, I'm not as concerned with parents who make an "informed decision" to abort, I just (of course because I have been personally involved) want to make sure that people understand the real nature of the disability. Again, due to my lack of knowledge, I most probably would have made the wrong choice for me.

I'm concerned, that's all.
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
     Skiing down the slippery slope... doing triple axles in fact - (danreck) - (15)
         Questions - (jbrabeck) - (1)
             Answers... - (danreck)
         This has gotten me all riled up - (bionerd) - (4)
             I used to go to Amsterdam every chance I got - (danreck) - (3)
                 Re: I used to go to Amsterdam every chance I got - (rcareaga) - (1)
                     Okay, so I forgot the sign... - (danreck)
                 Moi, SVP -NT - (tuberculosis)
         My $0.02. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Your $.02 is worth about a million bucks - (danreck)
             Quibbles - (ben_tilly)
         People have to be able to make up their own minds - (tuberculosis)
         You are entitled to your opinion - (ben_tilly) - (3)
             Ob: Cosby - (broomberg)
             on my last (I hope child) - (boxley)
             It's a very hard decision... - (danreck)

Those Pacific Island natives that have never met an outsider, and don't know about the outside world at all called. They said, "No shit, Sherlock."
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