IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 1 active user | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New More on Linux usability

For those keeping score at home, [link|http://www.mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu|this] is how you critique usability.

\r\n\r\n

And note that last paragraph: mpt does more than just criticize the stuff.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Bunch of self serving crap.
I got about 1/2 way through when I decided
he wasn't worth the read.

He's well educated, well read, and an asshole.

Here is a favorite quote of his:

[link|http://mpt.phrasewise.com/|http://mpt.phrasewise.com/]

\nWell, nothing new there either. From me three years ago:\n\n    It\ufffds certainly possible for a good programmer \ufffd to also be a \n\t strong UI designer; but that\ufffds no more likely to be the case than \n\t that, say, a construction worker will also be a good architect.\n


Note the use of MS specific characters as he shows a misunderstanding
of programming.

"construction worker"?

Yet another person who confuses bricks with bits.

Asshole.

Maybe as an employee of Canonical his comments will make
something better, since he IS right sometimes. But I doubt
it, since people recieving a message from such an individual
will often ignore the content.

And unless I'm mistaken, much of his rants are against Gnome,
and Canonical is not in charge of Gnome.
New Actually...

Note the use of MS specific characters as he shows a misunderstanding of programming.

\r\n\r\n

Those aren't 'MS-specific characters'. If your browser is unable to correctly display them, then your browser is buggy.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New I was wrong on the MS character issue
It showed fine on my browser but Cut & Pasted incorrectly.

A dump of the web site to plain text shows perfectly valid HTML.

I stand by my other comments.

He has a core misunderstanding of what real programming is.

New Also.

Frankly, he's right about UI design and programming being completely different disciplines, and he's absolutely right in saying that being a good programmer produces zero likelihood of being a good UI designer.

\r\n\r\n

Is the 'construction worker' analogy off? Yeah. I'd say the difference is more that of a structural engineer and an architect. But in the face of the dismissiveness most free software folks show toward usability and UI design, I don't blame him for being a little over-the-top in his characterization.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New No. Disagree.
Programming is FAR more art then engineering.

It is constructing in your mind ethereal bits and pieces of "code", which then translate into something in the real world that MIGHT munge data, interact with people, interact with other program, interact with hardware, etc.

Reconfigure it, and it does something totally different.

Make it command line driven, or control file driven, and it behaves differently every time it is invoked.

This is NOTHING like real world contruction.

While people would LIKE to have a toolbox approach, they quickly dead end. And then they find the toolbox "programmers" are just the contruction worker code monkeys, while real programmers use their imagination and experience to construct something no one else could envision, ie: ART!

And yes, these people (myself included) will usually never be able to come up with a good user interface. Usable, possibly, but good, probably not.
New And the art goes way down into the hardware.
Even most computer savey people are unaware that there are no such things as "digital devices". All are analog (over)driven in such a way they emulate digital devices, which makes design a lot less certain than many would suppose. Add that every silly nanometer of wire or board trace is a delay line and it becomes really fun.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I never implied there was no 'art'

And neither did mpt. Just that UI design is a completely different sort of art, much as good engineering and good architecture are two completely different sorts of arts.

\r\n\r\n

Which gets at the main problem with usability in Free/open source software: it's written by programmers, and so the interfaces tend to be the sorts of things only programmers find useful.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New He may be annoying, but he's right about that
How many programmers do you know who are good at programming, but not at graphic design?

Creating good end-user interfaces is a skill that is independent of both programming ability and graphic design, though it has some connections to both. And I've known plenty of programmers who lack it.

I often like to say that when programmers attempt to communicate they tend to be precise and ineffective. Precise in that their words mean exactly what was said. Ineffective in that whoever they are talking to doesn't understand, and often the programmer has a hard time seeing how they couldn't. Our attempts to communicate through our user interfaces tend to be like our attempts to communicate in speech - precise and ineffective. What we say is correct and precise. But is not understood.

As a random illustration of the problem, someone who creates good end-user interfaces has to have empathy with how a user who doesn't understand the filesystem will interact with their applications. (Most users do not understand the filesystem.) How easy is it for programmers who generally work with fairly complex filesystem layouts to do that and empathize with how those users will interact with our programs?

Now there are many useful programs that do not need good end-user interfaces. For instance programs written for internal use do not - if things are unintuitive you can take the time to train people. And they are often willing to follow poorly understood instructions by rote. Likewise programs written for programmers often do not need good end-user interfaces - programmers are not normal end-users.

But if you are building an application that normal people are expected to use in large numbers without instruction or the opportunity to ask for help, then you need a skillset that most programmers aren't very good at.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Seemed sensible and well reasoned
and I agree about design vs development.

I personally make ugly websites that work. Designers generally make pretty websites that don't work. So we team up.

I thought his items were all solid.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New As I said a couple of times
he IS right sometimes.

But his message gets lost in a blizzard of bullshit.
New I disagree.
His usability comments are a collection of various rants with some reasonable comments mixed in. Complaining that Gnome isn't Mac OS (e.g. his first comment about wasting space by every window having a menu rather than a single one at the top of the screen) is rather stupid. Commenting on the font colors for active versus disabled text is fine. I would send his comments back for a rewrite if I were his editor.

In short, wouldn't hold that up as a good UI review myself.

I downloaded the 5.04 install and live CDs yesterday with the intention of trying them on my T41 (previous attempts with Ubuntu were unsuccessful). If he's representative of the folks at Canonical working on Ubuntu, well...

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: I disagree.

Granted, he's leaning a bit toward the Mac with his comments about menu bars, but from a usability standpoint he's right. It's demonstrably better to have one menu bar at the edge of the screen than to have one menubar per window, located underneath the window decoration.

\r\n\r\n

mpt is a bit full of himself, but he knows his stuff.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New A bit? :-) A lot...
I was less than a quarter of the way through when I realized he was extremely Mac-centric. His initial criticisms are going to be ignored because of this - IOW, people are going to respond "well stay on a Mac, then". This is a shame, because a lot of the later stuff is actually real problems that should be fixed.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

     More on Linux usability - (ubernostrum) - (13)
         Bunch of self serving crap. - (broomberg) - (9)
             Actually... - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                 I was wrong on the MS character issue - (broomberg)
             Also. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                 No. Disagree. - (broomberg) - (2)
                     And the art goes way down into the hardware. - (Andrew Grygus)
                     I never implied there was no 'art' - (ubernostrum)
             He may be annoying, but he's right about that - (ben_tilly)
             Seemed sensible and well reasoned - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                 As I said a couple of times - (broomberg)
         I disagree. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Re: I disagree. - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                 A bit? :-) A lot... - (static)

"I have Mountain Dew, and crab juice."
"Ugh! Gross! I'll take a crab juice!"
70 ms