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New Hints about the GPL v3
[link|http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3495981|http://www.internetn...ticle.php/3495981]

The flamewar on /. at [link|http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/04/08/2148207.shtml?tid=98&tid=106|http://linux.slashdo...ml?tid=98&tid=106] notwithstanding, there is at least one proposal I know of which could do this. Several years ago Bruce Perens pointed out to me that hosting a website can be seen as a public performance, the right to control public performances of works is given to copyright owners in law, and the GPL v2 does not grant it to recipients. He suggested that this could be used to push websites to release source code just like how the current GPL pushes proprietary software vendors to release source code.

Getting from here to there requires, of course, a test lawsuit to establish that hosting a highly trafficed website constitutes a public performance. But after that, suddenly the GPL v2 would not be sufficient to the needs of many people who currently rely on it...

Of course this is all hypothetical at the moment.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Wouldn't that also apply to non-OSS licenses?
I haven't really thought through the implications of that, but whenever someone describes a potential pitfall of the GPL my first question is, "Is that not equally true of a non-OSS license?"
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yes
But proprietary projects often have simpler ownership than a complex OSS projects. That makes amending licenses easier.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Sounds like the real choice in licensing is simplicity
GPL provides simplicity of terms. Proprietary licenses provide dimplicity of ownership. You can't negotiate new terms on a GPL product without first identifying everyone with a copyright claim to it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New BSD is simpler
They've even addressed the public performance issue IMO.

GPL v2 doesn't do that.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Hate to say this, but ...
If Bruce Perens has any influence on the future direction of the GPL, and if what he told you turns out to have been a goal and not an interesting side-effect, and if the articel that started all is a valid indication of what's under discussion -- lots of ifs there, I know -- I may have to agree with opponents of the FSF that the goal really is that all software should be free. Not Free, free.

It is uncomfortably easy to see a plan in the long-standing recommendation that people include the "or any future version" language when releasing under GPL. The charitable view is that a project may start out when there is only V1, and another project under V2, and the projects are merged. The only way to do this without expressed consent from all contributors is if the V1 project included the "or any future version" clause.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That would conflict with Freedom 0.

And loony as RMS may be, he ain't gonna let that happen. Plus, if GPLv3 did turn out to have some nasty clause on it like this, everybody would just stick to GPLv2. Most of the Free software I use is explicitly pinned at GPLv2 anyway, and would require the consent of all the contributors (also ain't gonna happen -- remember the Mozilla relicensing debacle?) to be able to switch to another version.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Why wouldn't he?
He might not because he thinks that it wouldn't work and could backfire. But I'd be willing to bet that he would like to do this.

Today if you build an application that people interact with on a website, you don't have to share source under the GPL. And companies build plenty of applications and don't share source. If you build an application that you distribute to people the GPL can make you share source. And companies build plenty of applications and share source because of it.

RMS thinks that the latter is a good thing. I'd be willing to bet that he thinks that the former is a bad thing. Given a future where more and more applications are hosted elsewhere, this constantly reduces the impact of the GPL.

The public performance idea does nothing more than put people whose application runs on a website in the same boat as people whose application runs on your computer. The complaints that people would have parallel the complaints that traditional software companies have about the GPL. The benefits from the point of view of the FSF are exactly the same.

Why do you think that RMS would be morally opposed to evening the playing field in this way?

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I can think of one reason
It would mean that people with websites that have programs developed using gpl tools would stop using them if they didn't want to share sources. For some people, there are very good reasons to want that. In the long run, it would damage the spread of free software.

Furthermore, those tools' source is shared with the person who is using it; to website's owner and/or developer. The people using the website itself are not using the tool; they're using the website; while some of the output they get may have been generated by an open source tool, the overall organisation of that output is outside the tools' purview.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New That argument is not new
It was used against the GPL back when the GPL first came out. RMS wasn't convinced by it then, why would he be convinced by it now?

Besides you're way overestimating the impact. Take a GPLed tool like emacs. If you write code with emacs, the code that you've written is yours and you can do with it what you want. Likewise if you write a website with emacs, by no stretch of the imagination can that website be viewed as a public performance of emacs. Therefore you'd be unaffected by the change.

However if you were using, say, a GPLed library for dealing with XMLhttpd requests, then the public website which is delivering data to clients using that library might be considered a public performance of that library. (This is assuming that a court rules that this is public performance, which is a question that no court as yet has considered.) And then you might have extra clauses to consider.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New RMS is far crazier than that.
I seem to recall original interpretation of the GPL, as applied to GCC, was that everything produced using GCC was GPL.
New He was probably right
The GPL says:

The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.

It is very easy for the output of a compiler to be a work based on the compiler under copyright law. For a trivial example, it could just insert a copyrighted poem into the final work. For a more realistic example, suppose that it inserted a section of code that tested the type of CPU and dynamically turned on/off specific optimizations or workarounds.

The result is that there are specific kinds of optimizations that the GCC maintainers will not even consider because they would make the output of GCC a derivative work of GCC and trigger the GPL.

Personally I wish that they added them anyways and had a compiler switch that you could use to turn them on. On my Debian system, I don't mind if all of the GPLed utilities are compiled in a way that makes them faster but derivative works of GCC.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New (Un)intended consequences
Suppose the FSF gets a case into court arguing that serving up a website constitutes public performance, so that they can enforce the terms of the GPL against the site host. Suppose a judge accepts the argument and the FSF prevails.

Presto, Microsoft owns all websites hosted on IIS. Now whose license do you like better? And what do you think of UCITA?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That could bring up an interesting possibility.
If website is done right, most - if not all - of what a company would like to keep "proprietary" is technically data and not actually part of the codebase. If a new GPL starts encouraging people to release their website code, those who've been faking it with hard-coded data (for instance) will find themselves at a competetive disadvantage.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New That entirely depends on what your website does
For instance what Google would like to keep proprietary really isn't the data that they deliver.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I hadn't thought of that.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

     Hints about the GPL v3 - (ben_tilly) - (15)
         Wouldn't that also apply to non-OSS licenses? - (drewk) - (4)
             Yes - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                 Sounds like the real choice in licensing is simplicity - (drewk) - (2)
                     BSD is simpler - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                         Hate to say this, but ... - (drewk)
         That would conflict with Freedom 0. - (ubernostrum) - (9)
             Why wouldn't he? - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                 I can think of one reason - (jake123) - (7)
                     That argument is not new - (ben_tilly)
                     RMS is far crazier than that. - (broomberg) - (2)
                         He was probably right - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             (Un)intended consequences - (drewk)
                     That could bring up an interesting possibility. - (static) - (2)
                         That entirely depends on what your website does - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             I hadn't thought of that. -NT - (static)

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