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New Dynamic web apps vs rich clients
[link|http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1777009,00.asp|Could Ajax Wash Away 'Smart Clients'? ]

"They are backing a programming model known as "Ajax," which translates roughly to "asynchronous JavaScript and XML."
...
Among the technologies included are:

# standards-based presentation using XHTML and Cascading Style Sheets (CSS);

# dynamic display and interaction using the Document Object Model;


# data interchange and manipulation using XML and XSLT;

# asynchronous data retrieval using XMLHttpRequest;

# and JavaScript binding everything together."

In my previous job we did this and we ended up with a very responsive web app, for example we provided a tree view of items, when you (or someone else) added an item, it magically appeared in the tree a second or 2 later. However, it is buggy, very hard to debug, and requires writing a lot of unmaintainable Javascript. In addition, it doesn't address the other issues, such as working disconnected (which these days is less frequent with wifi but not unheard of).

IMHO, if you are developing a web app then it is definately something to look into as it makes the application more dynamic, but I wouldn't rush to move my rich clients to this.
New I hope it does.
There's a bunch of internal applications I have to use that are nothing more than buttons and forms over back-end logic; there's NO REASON for these things to exist in object form on my computer. Apart from the fact that they got developed like that, that is.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New I'm telling ya, gotta move back to VB/Delphi model
Just need something like SCGUI to separate what is possible via non-turing commands.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Yeah.
Cuz I'm really going to install VB runtimes on my Mac. Or my Linux box. Or my FreeBSD box.

Think, boy, THINK.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Try this.
[link|http://www.realbasic.com|http://www.realbasic.com]
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Well, if we can fiat SCGUI into existence...
...then it wouldn't take much more to wish for Mac & *nix versions and have them appear in thin air.
New I meant in general
________________
oop.ismad.com
New The idea sucks in general, too.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New you were vague on why it "sucked"
________________
oop.ismad.com
New I have a Mac. Or a Linux box. Or an Amiga. Or a toaster.
Your client-application doesn't look so cool now, does it?

Oh, we could use Java, but that's OO, so it sucks.

I've got this thing called a "web browser" which connects to servers using these things called "standard protocols" which, if you adhere to them, give you the ability to stop writing shitty applications with shitty interfaces in Visual BASIC that DON'T RUN ON ANYTHING BUT WINDOWS.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Cross-platform is an implementation detail
________________
oop.ismad.com
New A detail that requires...
not implementing in VB.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New But not RealBasic.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New The point is...
...we already have a method of doing sufficiently rich content onto various platforms, called a "web browser". And like opinions and arseholes, everyone's got one.



Peter
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New For varying- and IMO insufficient- def'ns of "sufficiently".
New What is that you can't do in a web browser...
...that would make it worth developing a new set of client-side things you have to install (and support, and develop in the first place) across multiple platforms with disparate UI behaviour, thus more-or-less guaranteeing that on all but one of your platforms, your application looks and acts like a dog?

Remember, Java exists. I don't see what Bryce's idea offers that Java doesn't.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New Bullshit.
PeeWee goes overboard:
...stop writing shitty applications with shitty interfaces in Visual BASIC that DON'T RUN ON ANYTHING BUT WINDOWS.
Bull, and you know it.

Whatever the (many) problems with Visual BASIC, "shitty interfaces" isn't one of them. On the contrary, it would be more correct to say that the user interface is the only thing VB gets *right*.

(Oh, by all means, I'm sure there are lots of VB apps with shitty UIs -- but I'm equally sure those are the fault of the programmer, not the language.)


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New You're so LITERAL, CRC.
The entire point of that sentence is the bit in caps, so you focus on the other bit. Sheesh.

Anyway.

Many, many (most?) VB applications are flung together (because it's so easy in VB) and the UI sucks. Practically every in-house or vertical-market piece of software (coagulated using VB or V-whatever) I've ever used has had a UI that's moronic in at least one (and usually lots more) way.

VB engenders very fast development. Very fast development engenders shitty interfaces, because good interface design is hard, and takes time.

The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac. Java exists, and does. So what does Bryce want again? Visual BASIC for Java? Visual Java? Java BASIC? Visual J++? Java with the OO stuff taken out?

Bryce is reinventing the wheel, and you're going off on a tangent.


Peter
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New Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess...
PeeWee gibbers on:
The entire point of that sentence is the bit in caps, so you focus on the other bit. Sheesh.
Bullshit again, I'm afraid: If the bit in caps had been the ENTIRE point, then you wouldn't have typed the rest in the first place, now would you?

No, of course it had a point, such as it was: an attempt to further discredit VizzBass. Too bad (for you) it backfired, but that's what happens when you type away without first engaging brain.


Many, many (most?) VB applications are flung together (because it's so easy in VB) and the UI sucks. Practically every in-house or vertical-market piece of software (coagulated using VB or V-whatever) I've ever used has had a UI that's moronic in at least one (and usually lots more) way.
Oh, what a sadly one-sided experience you've had. What can I say... Sucks to be you, I suppose.


VB engenders very fast development. Very fast development engenders shitty interfaces, because good interface design is hard, and takes time.
Oh, bullshit, *again*.

In the first place, many -- if not most -- apps done in VB are utterly trivial little things, and thus don't need all *that* sophisticated an interface. Secondly, even a non-UI-expert lowly VB developer gets a feel for these utterly -- and maybe even not-so-utterly -- trivial little apps, after the third or sixth one he codes.

And finally, your whole complaint here can be rewritten as "this tool is shit, because it works too well!".


The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac.
It doesn't run on your *Mac*?!? Who gives a shit???

What the fuck are you; some kind of artist?!? Sorry, I mean -- some kind of artiste???

Buy a fucking normal computer, like a fucking normal person.


Java exists, and does.
Java exists, and does *what*, exactly? Oh, yeah, that's it: Suck.

That's right, Java exists, and does indeed suck.


So what does Bryce want again? Visual BASIC for Java? Visual Java? Java BASIC? Visual J++? Java with the OO stuff taken out?
Something that *runs*, not oozes-like-it's-stuck-in-molasses?

Something that *doesn't* have the same butt-ugly UI on every platform, conforming to the look-and-feel of none of them?

Just the first couple guesses that come to mind, you see...


Bryce is reinventing the wheel, and you're going off on a tangent.
Bullshit.

Bryce is actually (mostly) right (for once), and you're bashing away on him either out of sheer habit, or because you're genuinely misguided on this issue.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Re: Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess..
Something that *runs*, not oozes-like-it's-stuck-in-molasses?
If you're talking about VB vs. Java, then that wasn't true even 6 or 7 years ago (I had exhaustive in-house metrics to prove it, too).

Sheesh. There are a lot of bad things that Java is, but slow isn't one of them any longer.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Most sub-giga-RAM boxes I've used J-apps on, it's still SLOW
New Just like there are bad UIs in some VB programs...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Slow at what?
"There are a lot of bad things that Java is, but slow isn't one of them any longer."

Mmmmm. Depends. Slow to run, not so much. Slow to start - verrrry. Fire up any Swing app on Mac OS X and you'll find that it takes ages to get just the splash screen up. Criminal that is and it is why I pronounce desktop Java an unqualified failure.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Re: Slow at what?
The desktop Java apps I use are PVCS (teh sukc) and rarely IntelliJ.

Splash screen times are no longer than things like Open Office or Firefox.

I tend to leave GUI applications running for long periods of time, so startup times don't bother me in the least.

Somewhat related: NeoOffice/J runs quite nicely on our Mini at home.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New OpenOffice Win32 is a turtle. :-(
Writer 1.9.91 takes 9 seconds to open on this Athlon64 with 1 GB of RAM. I have no idea how the Formula editor can be so slow either.

On the other hand, DeScribe 5 (Win32) loads in < 1 s. Word 97 (which, granted, has a bunch of DLLs already loaded) loads in < 1 s.

OO is a turtle. Saying desktop Java is comparable isn't saying much. :-(

Cheers,
Scott.



New I'm not talking about Windows.
And OpenOffice for Windows isn't Java. :-)

<6s for Linux OpenOffice on a 1.4 Ghz Xeon.
2s for Gnumeric, 4s for Abiword.
11s for Mozilla 1.7.
3s for FireFox 1.0, but it's already loaded. It's a good bit longer if it isn't running already.
3s for Evolution.

All of these are C/C++.

Compare to:

5s for pvcsvmux, a GUI Java program.
10s for IDEA, a Java IDE.

Not too bad for PVCS, especially since it's a crappily-written Java program to boot. IDEs in general are very slow to start as well; Visual Stupido 6 takes for-freakin'-ever.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Your IDEA launches considerably faster than mine
I'm seeing times closer to 50s.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New He is TEH ADMIN, remember.
Java fears him.

You are clearly instilling insufficient fear into your equipment.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New :-)
New Must be your encouraging mental field...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Not slow?
You'll probably write this off as "bad code" but have you ever seen how long it takes to load the DB2 UDB 8.2 UI? We've got an older DB2 server (4 GIG RAM, dual 1.1 Ghz processors) and I cry everytime I have to launch that app. (I shouldn't though, I should start it, go to the bathroom for a dump, stop and get a Diet Coke out of the machine, walk back to the server room and then, if I'm lucky and hold my tongue right, the splash screen will come up).
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
New Yeah, that's bad code.
BEA Weblogic's admin console was the same way. 140M from a standing start, and buggy as hell.

In contrast, JDeveloper can start in 5-6 seconds and it has a more-or-less complete Oracle tool in it.

So yeah, keep slagging Java's speed if it makes you feel better. But don't expect me to join the jihad.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New So, to summarise:
"VB is great and you should all use Windows".


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Which VB?
Being as VB6 is incompatible with VB.Net, all them programmers out there are gonna have to be learnt a new language. VB6 was good at getting you 85% there on an app and then being the worst possible language in the world for that last 15%. VB.Net is just a variation on C#.Net which is itself a variation of Java. MS no longer plans to support VB6, which means all those VB programmers are moving to Java (well a java clone at any rate).
New Ask CRC, he's the one with a stiffy for it :-)


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong
Many of us have good reasons for avoiding Windows. And if you want to start criticizing us for wanting to avoid Windows, we're going to think that you're an idiot. For good reason.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Sheesh, man... it's obvious that some of us can, though.
Be unable to read, that is. .-(

What does it take; should I have called im a commie longhair hippie freak, too?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New I can read just fine.
Go back to your previous post.
The whole schmeer doesn't run on my Mac.

It doesn't run on your *Mac*?!? Who gives a shit???
What the fuck are you; some kind of artist?!? Sorry, I mean -- some kind of artiste???
Buy a fucking normal computer, like a fucking normal person.

This may have been a pathetic attempt at humor. But it was too pathetic an attempt to interpret that way, hence I didn't. Therefore I applied logic.

The only "fucking normal computer" on which VB works is Windows on x86. The argument that this is what a "fucking normal person" would do is an argument from popularity. Specifically an argument from popularity to use Windows. The normal response to someone saying, Do X because that is what everyone does is the line, Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong. (Or trivial variations thereof.) Hence my response.

In short Peter's complaint that it doesn't work on his Mac is reasonable to me. His complaint that it also doesn't work on his Linux machine is reasonable to me. Your response that he should be normal and run a normal computer (by implication Windows) seems stupid to me. Which fact I proceeded to point out.

If you still think that my reading comprehension lacks, please clarify.

Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Yep, I still think so.
BenT asks [Moved around to suit my order - CRC]:
If you still think that my reading comprehension lacks, please clarify.
OK, I'll try.


This may have been a pathetic attempt at humor. But it was too pathetic an attempt to interpret that way, hence I didn't. Therefore I applied logic.
It was indeed "an attempt" at humour. And I'm sorry, But I'm not going to take your word for it that it was "pathetic"; your humour circuitry appears to be, if not damaged, then not of the best to begin with. Look, for instance, at your own closely following passage:
The normal response to someone saying, Do X because that is what everyone does is the line, Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong. (Or trivial variations thereof.) Hence my response.
SIGH... The bit about a billion flies not being wrong is what's called in the humour business a "set-up line"; the "Eat shit!" part is a so-called "punch-line".

Anyone who calls putting the punch-line BEFORE the set-up a "trivial" variation is soooo not qualified to pass judgement on my humour.

HTH.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New You've clearly not encountered that line before
It is far more common to put the "Eat shit" bit first. Google for how many times you find various variations to verify that. It puts the emphasis in the place that makes the desired point, which is how stupid it is to do things because they are popular.

Besides, anyone who would attempt to break a joke down into semantics like you did is obviously not processing things the same way that normal people are. Every rule gets broken from time to time.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Oh, POAD, you whiney ars...rectum.
My first encounter with that line predates Google by just a tad; it was probably before you were able to read, too. A classmate had it printed on a T-shirt (complete with silly cartoon of a furry fly and a pile of dung) in... Must have been about 1978.

Be that how it may, I still don't see how moving the punch-line before the set-up somehow alters "the emphasis"; AFAICS, the point remains the same either way.

And, your gibbering about "break[ing] a joke down into semantics" (like, babbling about how ruining the joke "makes the desired point"?) notwithstanding, I'm still fairly sure it's a well-know common-sense basic rule of joke-telling: You save the punch line for last. Are you *seriously* trying to dispute this? Or are you trying to claim that it isn't supposed to be a joke at all?

Oh, whogivesafuck: Keep whining, you annoying miserable little sod; I'm not going to listen any more. [Marvellous phrase, there, (c) PW -- Thanks!]


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Definitely not before I could read...
1978 was the year I turned 9, I'd already discovered science fiction by then.

As for the rest, I think we are agreed that there is no point in continued discussion between us.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Notice how the mention of Turing pins everyone's bogometer
New Going for the extinguish part?
Using the victims of the browser wars and Microsoft attitude to standards: JavaScript and CSS. Sounds like anything actual useful and sophisticated won't port to other browsers. Embrace, extend and extinguish.

If we want dynamic web apps, there's always Java applets. Swing sucks stellar matter but I can't see Ajax being any better. After all, this is the company take gave us VC++ and MFC.
Matthew Greet


But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
New Have you used gmail or google maps?
When properly written, complex "ajax" applications work fine across modern browsers.

They don't, of course, work on Netscape 4.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Alas, Opera ain't fully supported
It seems cross-browser 'Ajax' still has a few things to work out. [link|http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/about.html|http://gmail.google....l/help/about.html] And it's Microsoft that's developing Ajax. You think they'll sweat blood to make it cross-browser and cross-platform? It would be ironic if they made it do what Java applets failed to do.
Matthew Greet


But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
New Microsoft is developing Ajax? Buh?
Ajax competes with Avalon...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You mean that Opera doesn't fully support standards
is what you mean.

My job at big river books is to roll this kind of dynamic stuff out soon. Right now our coverage is IE 6+ and Firefox 0.9+ and that's it. That's all I have resources to qualify. Given the bugginess of IE its been a lot of effort to get two browsers supported but the size of its user population makes it justifiable. I expect we will qualify Safari in the next couple months (it seems to "just work")and will expend effort to support that one too as it is the primary browser for a growing platform.

We do not expect to expend effort to make our JS work with Opera, Konqueror, iCab, or any other browser. We are checking user agent and simply vending non-js versions of stuff if a browser is not in our supported stack.

Word to the alternative browser makers and users. Make your stuff rigidly adhere to web standards if you want to remain viable - otherwise we will likely start putting links to supported browsers on pages you fetch with unsupported ones.

Its long past time for people to expect site developers to "support" anything but what is published at w3c.org. By the end of the year, I am expecting all non-legacy pages to pass validation at [link|http://validator.w3.org|http://validator.w3.org]. (Don't even try it on our homepage now - it is to cry to do so).

But talk of "supporting" buggy browsers is counter productive. The browsers should "support" us.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Question about JS and Firefox (new thread)
Created as new thread #201409 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=201409|Question about JS and Firefox]
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New As others have pointed out, that is Opera's fault
The relevant standards to make Ajax work are several years old. What is new is that developers have decided that the installed base is big enough to actually try to take advantage of them.

Microsoft actually doesn't like this, because the applications coming out are smooth enough that they can replace desktop applications, and there is no tie-in to Windows here.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New What's funny about that
is that MS was one of the early adopters with their Outlook web client. They did a great job of reproducing the desktop experience. In some ways they exceeded the desktop app (not that this is any real trick).




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Re: What's funny about that
In what way did they exceed the desktop app? I use OWA regularly and detest it because it's cack. I'd be interested to know if it's got hidden depths.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New NONONONONO
YOU MUST WRITE A PROGRAM THAT THE USER MUST INSTALL ON THEIR COMPUTER

THIS IS THE FUTURE

I KNOW IT TO BE TRUE BECAUSE BRYCE SAYS SO


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Shrug...rich clients aren't going anywhere
there's no security for it. There's always going to be a user (or two) who turns off Javascript (or feature-foo in Javascript).

(I threathened at one point to implement a menu choice of which Javascript features that I was going to allow my brower to run. It's still possible.)
     Dynamic web apps vs rich clients - (bluke) - (53)
         I hope it does. - (pwhysall)
         I'm telling ya, gotta move back to VB/Delphi model - (tablizer) - (40)
             Yeah. - (pwhysall) - (38)
                 Try this. - (mmoffitt)
                 Well, if we can fiat SCGUI into existence... - (ChrisR)
                 I meant in general -NT - (tablizer) - (35)
                     The idea sucks in general, too. -NT - (pwhysall) - (34)
                         you were vague on why it "sucked" -NT - (tablizer) - (33)
                             I have a Mac. Or a Linux box. Or an Amiga. Or a toaster. - (pwhysall) - (32)
                                 Cross-platform is an implementation detail -NT - (tablizer) - (5)
                                     A detail that requires... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                         But not RealBasic. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                     The point is... - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                         For varying- and IMO insufficient- def'ns of "sufficiently". -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                             What is that you can't do in a web browser... - (pwhysall)
                                 Bullshit. - (CRConrad) - (25)
                                     You're so LITERAL, CRC. - (pwhysall) - (24)
                                         Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess... - (CRConrad) - (23)
                                             Re: Yeah, well, sorry; we can't all be illiterate, I guess.. - (admin) - (12)
                                                 Most sub-giga-RAM boxes I've used J-apps on, it's still SLOW -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                     Just like there are bad UIs in some VB programs... -NT - (admin)
                                                 Slow at what? - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                                                     Re: Slow at what? - (admin) - (6)
                                                         OpenOffice Win32 is a turtle. :-( - (Another Scott) - (5)
                                                             I'm not talking about Windows. - (admin) - (4)
                                                                 Your IDEA launches considerably faster than mine - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                     He is TEH ADMIN, remember. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                     Must be your encouraging mental field... -NT - (admin)
                                                 Not slow? - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                     Yeah, that's bad code. - (admin)
                                             So, to summarise: - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 Which VB? - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                     Ask CRC, he's the one with a stiffy for it :-) -NT - (pwhysall)
                                             Eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                 Sheesh, man... it's obvious that some of us can, though. - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                                     I can read just fine. - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                         Yep, I still think so. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                             You've clearly not encountered that line before - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                 Oh, POAD, you whiney ars...rectum. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                     Definitely not before I could read... - (ben_tilly)
             Notice how the mention of Turing pins everyone's bogometer -NT - (FuManChu)
         Going for the extinguish part? - (warmachine) - (9)
             Have you used gmail or google maps? - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                 Alas, Opera ain't fully supported - (warmachine) - (6)
                     Microsoft is developing Ajax? Buh? - (admin)
                     You mean that Opera doesn't fully support standards - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                         Question about JS and Firefox (new thread) - (jb4)
                     As others have pointed out, that is Opera's fault - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                         What's funny about that - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Re: What's funny about that - (pwhysall)
                 NONONONONO - (pwhysall)
         Shrug...rich clients aren't going anywhere - (Simon_Jester)

And we had great cheese together.
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