Post #199,198
3/17/05 10:49:48 AM
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Count me in as a believer
Two family members dreamt of my father's death just prior to him dying. When it hits you that close to home, it's hard not to believe. I looked at the website link. On March 5th the author remarked she believes Michigan will be the target of some kind of terrorist attack. Interestingly, this was a big news story out here last week. Maybe I should be buying my duct tape and bottled water?
Freud said our dreams are a manifestation of our hopes and fears. Maybe. However, there is so much about the brain that we dont understand that I'm not ruling anything out.
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
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Post #199,212
3/17/05 11:58:04 AM
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Think critically about it.
No, I mean properly. You're a scientist, for crying out loud.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #199,227
3/17/05 1:26:39 PM
3/17/05 1:27:12 PM
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I knew someone would bring that up
I am being a scientist. We have yet to tap into all the powers of the brain. What kind of scientist would I be if I ruled something out just because there is no scientific explanation for it yet? Science would never advance if we all thought like that. There are lots folks out there studying the paranormal- I'm not one of them but it's always been an interest of mine.
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
Edited by bionerd
March 17, 2005, 01:27:12 PM EST
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Post #199,279
3/17/05 5:16:51 PM
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** applause **
FWIW I think the idea that dreams can be predictive is bunk. But ... you've experienced something I haven't. And you don't discount it just because it's not rational. Works for me.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #199,231
3/17/05 2:05:19 PM
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Scientists go bump in the night . .
There are too many odd things that happen to draw a line clearly anywhere.
While I don't recall ever having an event predicting dream, I have personally participated in other kinds of strangenesses which cannot be easily written off, and so have others.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #199,283
3/17/05 5:45:11 PM
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You seem to be reality challenged
Scientists are scientists because they are part of the scientific process, not because they meet your notion of scientific respectibility or because they agree with what you think should be the scientific orthodoxy. If science and scientists stuck only to the official orthodoxy of what educated people are supposed to believe, then we'd still think that the Sun goes around the Earth.
Biogeek is a biologist and believes in the possibility of things that you think are ridiculous. Danny similarly was a physicist and believes in things that you think are ludicrous. Plenty of scientists believe as you do. Plenty do not. (I'm with you in doubting the paranormal. When I was younger, though, I believed otherwise...)
In any case reality is that biogeek's beliefs do not match your impression of what scientists are like. Your impressions are wrong, please update them. If you fail to do so then you're showing your inability to handle actual facts. In which case your comments on science become a case of pot, kettle, black.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #199,341
3/18/05 1:33:10 AM
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Eh?
Since when does "I expect a scientist to think critically about something" end up equating to "I stab at thee for not following the scientific orthodoxy du jour"?
Look at warmachine's post for all the reasons why critical thinking should be applied.
And for goodness' sake, Ben, relax. (Unless, of course, you Khasim-ing me is you relaxing; in which case, never mind me :-) )
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #199,355
3/18/05 5:11:10 AM
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Ah.. a fav Windmill
Boot Lance:
Testing...
Self-check passed. Level aleph-[symbol for Golden Mean]
Combining your comments and Andy's succinct summary - agreement, as far as both go. I receive them as a Start, anyway. I know a couple prescience stories too, one with physical evidence.
I think also -
Jung had more pithy observations than most of the well-read usually delve enough to uncover; 'tis folly to imagine that his relevance is merely re "picking a shrink". Ross's comments I most-always found to be eminently Reasonable - surely facilitated by his possession of a larger, more eclectic vocabulary than is found in many prof. scientists [so little time to read elsewhere?]
.. And ..
Anybody with as much talent as Ross -- can be as testy as he likes; regret that he determined we had become too predictable / uninteresting? judgmental or just stodgy (?)
Dreams are IMO the perfect litmus of our collective dearth of understanding about 'scale', levels of consciousness, inference .. and lots of other concepts we [1]bandy about. In brief, I've reached the conclusion that ~~ a scientist with no appreciation for, no exploration of the metaphysical is a handicapped scientist. Ditto re the metaphysically obsessed - sans any comprehension of math, the physical laws, how (mere..) *things* work. Both sole-practitioners are incomplete. (And Muricans' predilection for display-religiosity obfuscates to the extent that, the word 'metaphysics' is not even in most working vocabularies, I observe.)
Most of our thoughts/impressions are circumscribed by language, further by the size of our own recognition vocabulary -- and only metaphor can roughly communicate the Better ones, whatever the 'size'. So much noise, and so much of that taken-in voluntarily. (Some believe that the quality of 'impressions' we allow 'in' - matter.)
Combine these seemingly disparate angles-of-view, the scientific method and metaphysical work/discipline and {Gawd.. which metaphor} maybe that's where the occasional wisdom comes in on little pussy cat feet..?
Well, something like that. IS the arrow of time reversible? Probably a trivial Question, in the larger scheme..
(I also believe that there are almost certainly epiphanies, but there is no epiphany PGP-key insurance: pedestrian brain chem always can fool the gullible, suggestible into imagining what one wishes to find. Nor will there ever be an Epiphany-Proof, even with G\ufffddel escape clause.)
Catch 23. Love. It.
moi
[1] Frequently I recall Feynman's more-than-cute quip, ~ ..people imagine that if something has a name - they 'understand' it. I have no doubt that RPF was not so much a magician (-grade 'genius') as, a genuine metaphysician. With Props!
[note for you, Ben: Props as in street usage. Or Creds, if you like] :-\ufffd
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Post #199,384
3/18/05 10:25:58 AM
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Bio*GEEK*?
When did I become a geek?
Science hasnt conclusively been able to debunk paranormal activity, either. So until then, I'm keeping an open mind. It's fun to speculate and explore the topic, anyway.
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
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Post #199,394
3/18/05 11:30:15 AM
8/21/07 12:44:19 PM
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Re: Bio*GEEK*?
"When did I become a geek?"
Gradually, over time. It rubs off you know.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,401
3/18/05 11:45:30 AM
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ICLRPD^3 (new thread)
Created as new thread #199400 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=199400|ICLRPD^3]
--
Steve
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Post #199,429
3/18/05 3:52:44 PM
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Gah, sorry. I use nerd/geek interchangeably
To me they mean pretty much the same thing except that one term is offensive on the West Coast and the other is on the East Coast. I think it is nerd that is offensive on the West and geek in the East, but I could have that backwards.
Sorry,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #199,441
3/18/05 4:53:53 PM
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Not to worry
A nerd by any other name is still a nerd :-)
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
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Post #199,826
3/21/05 5:00:10 PM
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Couldn't speak for the east...
...but 'nerd' is pretty offensive over here AFAIK. I broadly advertise myself as being the company Alpha-geek, but that doesn't mean anything as far as social acceptability goes.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
-Isaac Asimov
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Post #199,828
3/21/05 5:02:08 PM
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And in the UK, neither have particularly +ve connotations.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #199,388
3/18/05 10:49:47 AM
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Look at Scott's post in the science forum
13 Things that dont make sense-
(someone has got to show me how to link posts)
Lots of phenomena in our world cant be explained, but when the phenomena falls under the heading "physics" or some other more accepted body of science, it's easier to believe and accept. File it under "paranormal" and the skeptics come crawling out of the woodwork. Why is that?
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
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Post #199,398
3/18/05 11:39:36 AM
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The paranormal suffers from lack of explanation
Paranormal theories tend not to explain how something is happening. Similarly, the zodiac is disbelieved as there's no satifactory explanation of how stars that form a piss-poor resemblence to something else is meant to influence people far more than, say, passing traffic. If someone created such an explanation, it would be at odds with the rest of science. If it wasn't, it would be so complex and convoluted, Occam's Razor would cut it out.
If something can't be explained, such as the placebo effect, then it needs repeatable experiments as evidence. Again, the paranormal has trouble. Admittedly, physics is far better funded but someone needs to go around bending spoons in laboratories around the world.
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #199,430
3/18/05 3:57:44 PM
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Lack of explanation is a non-issue
Science has seriously investigated plenty of ideas that have lacked explanation. For instance when Newton's law of Gravity came out, there was much arguing over whether to accept the action at a distance which was implied. Similarly Einstein's explanation of the photoelectric effect was seriously considered even though nobody had an explanation for how continuous waves could be acting like particles.
A much bigger issue is lack of evidence. For instance there is no personality test that has been shown to have a positive correlation with your Sun sign. Plenty of people have tried to find one, but with a uniform lack of success. This is pretty strong evidence against astrological theories about how personality is supposed to correlate (albeit with many complications) with your Sun sign.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #199,513
3/19/05 11:35:02 AM
3/19/05 11:46:39 AM
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OT: To do a Linky
Either:
1) Use the [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=57396|WeeCodes] (making sure you have the "Process WeeCodes" box checked (in the list of checkboxes on the New Comment page).
For example, typing:
[post://199328|Scott's post]
would show up as [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=199328|Scott's post] and be a clickable link to the 13 Things post in the Science forum.
You can get the post number by looking at the http address when you're reading the post you want to cite.
2) Use HTML to create the link yourself. You'd type the above link as:
[a href="http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=199328"]Scott's post[/a]
where you would replace the open and close square brackets, [ ], with open and close angle brackets < >, respectively. Replace the stuff in the quotes to (almost) any other URL you might want to use, and "Scott's post" with whatever text you want to use to describe the link.
The WeeCodes are quite handy. You probably want to experiment with them until you feel more comfortable.
Experiment with the Test forum and post a question if this isn't clear.
HTH.
[edit:] Tyop in Subject. Sheesh.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,518
3/19/05 11:47:02 AM
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Don't forget option 3
Just stick the URL in the post and it automatically turns into a link. Like [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=199328|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=199328].
(This assumes that you've checked "Auto Convert URLs to Links".)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #199,298
3/17/05 6:45:06 PM
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You may be ignoring negatives
People tend to remember coincidences or distinctive events but not nondescript ones. Are you sure your family members haven't dreamt your father's death before but instantly forgot about them as unpleasant dreams? Was your father's condition terminal and various subconscious minds were exploring the concept? Is it more probable that a few positives are really swamped by many, uncounted, false positives? Is it just a coincidence?
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #199,386
3/18/05 10:31:59 AM
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Sure, any of those could be true
Or not. We'll never know and that's what makes this all so interesting. Dont you wonder about the "what if's"?
It's like, "How much more black could this be?", and the answer is none. None more black.
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Post #199,390
3/18/05 11:07:37 AM
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I prefer 'what is likely and possible?'
If I pondered every 'what if?', I'd be considering every superstition, crackpot conspiracy, religious text and urban myth and I don't have a thousand lifetimes. Instead, I automatically filter based on credibility of source, detached style of argument, consideration of opposing evidence and arguments and explanation of how cause generates effect. I'm the kind of person that notices that explosions don't go 'boom' in space. Next, I apply Occam's Razor. Only then, will I wonder about something that is likely and possible.
In this case, the dream prediction fails at 'consideration of opposing evidence and arguments' and 'how cause generates effect'.
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #199,500
3/19/05 6:13:28 AM
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'how cause generates effect'
Heh.. the tacit presumption that "causality" is straightforward.
Volumes have been written on that glimmer of an idea - 'causality'. I tend to lump it with, "action at a distance", in ~~ philosophical 'class'.
(Spin of electrons separated at t=0, now an entire "finite but unbounded" cosmos away? Is spin conserved?? and the like.)
I do not think that word causality gets the scrutiny it deserves, in very many "obvious conclusions" we casually toss off (especially of the either/or kind).
But then, if it were all easy -
Maybe even Econ would work (for relaxed meanings of 'work')
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Post #199,414
3/18/05 2:12:35 PM
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Another possibility...
is that the fully awake mind may be restructuring memories of unstructured dreams to fit something it sees or has seen.
So in this situation, someone may have something on thier mind when they go to sleep; say they're looking for a new car. This person has a dream that they're driving a car down a familiar road; but as dreams go, the car they're driving is constantly in flux. The next day they go car shopping, and they come across a car that's similar to one they saw in the dream. In their mind, they latch on to the image they saw and adjust it to fit reality. Their mind in trying to structure the chaos of the dream make the dream seem to come true.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #199,417
3/18/05 2:42:47 PM
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OT - your picture
If you want a somewhat more visible version, it's here
[image|http://www.aaxnet.com/ajg/Stevenmini.jpg||||]
Of course, with Homeland Security and what all, you may not want it more visible.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #199,436
3/18/05 4:18:17 PM
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Re: OT - your picture
Think I'll just retake the picture in a better location. In the mean time I have lightened it with a bit more contrast.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #199,884
3/21/05 9:42:07 PM
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OT - twiddle the gamma.
I've found upping the gamma on that sort of shot gives excellent results.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #199,431
3/18/05 4:01:46 PM
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This is how memory always works
We rehearse and reconstruct what we think happened into our final memory. In the process details get changed, eliminated, and added to fit the narrative that we have.
This is widely recognized as one of the biggest problems with eyewitness reports. In an extreme form, this is also the source of false memory syndrome.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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