Post #198,949
3/16/05 9:06:39 AM
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AJAX programming
I'm not sure about [link|http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php|AJAX] yet, although admittedly I've only been thinking about it for a few minutes. While I see the utility of using asynchronous requests, I don't see how programming the UI in Javascript is going to be anything short of painful.
What we do for this sort of programming:
1) Render the initial interface using your server-side templating solution of choice
2) Keep a hidden frame on the page for updates
3) When an update is needed, post the frame to the *same* rendering code.
4) Walk the resulting HTML with a simple Javascript function that copies/inserts the new HTML into the existing page from the update frame.
This approach has the benefit of doing the HTML rendering on the server where all the Good Tools are, for both initial load and updates.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #198,968
3/16/05 10:30:39 AM
8/21/07 6:39:34 AM
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Its the wave of the future
I happen to manage the group focused on building the framework for this (its two guys). The number of groups signing up to use their stuff is exploding. They've got a complete windowing system and widget toolkit built.
Sometime this summer you will begin to see very fancy new features launch at my employer based on this approach. Ultimately I think the browsers are going to become fairly rich clients. Safari on the Mac is getting new vector drawing commands to support dashboard widgets. You can do rich graphics compositing from javascript. Other browsers will likely follow suit.
Its going to become standard procedure within 2 years.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #198,999
3/16/05 11:42:11 AM
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If that's the case...
... the I would hope it gets done and accepted before Avalon.
Are you aware of any FOSS toolkits?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #199,044
3/16/05 1:22:17 PM
8/21/07 6:41:05 AM
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FOSS?
Like Free Open Source Software (I'm guessing here).
There are some parts around if you look.
[link|http://www.htmlarea.com/|http://www.htmlarea.com/] is a directory of wysiwyg text editors written as both js/dhtml and craplets (which we avoid because of response times).
Dynamic table widget: [link|http://www.activewidgets.com/grid/|http://www.activewidgets.com/grid/]
Calendar: [link|http://www.dynarch.com/projects/calendar/|http://www.dynarch.c...rojects/calendar/]
Tree widget: [link|http://www.zapatec.com/website/main/zptree/html.html|http://www.zapatec.c.../zptree/html.html]
There's even a simple working spreadsheet around somewhere (can't find it just now).
Google away though - lots of stuff. One of those nifty text editors might be a nice addition to iwethey.
These are just examples. Its only recently that people have figured out that you can build non-trivial widgets using js/css/dhtml. Google maps is a great example as is the search as you type feature.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,054
3/16/05 2:19:34 PM
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Thanks.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #229,755
10/16/05 9:40:47 PM
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Just started using the calendar widget - very nice
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #229,988
10/18/05 5:36:55 PM
10/19/05 12:38:21 PM
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Lots of new JS toolkits have come out
recently.
[link|http://script.aculo.us|http://script.aculo.us] is a library of visual transitions that looks pretty decent.
[link|http://prototype.conio.net/|http://prototype.conio.net/] is a base library starting to catch on.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #230,002
10/18/05 7:05:41 PM
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Sheesh.
Prototype: Worst. Documentation. Evah.
I don't even know WTF that library is capable of. Or really what it's for. And yes, I've already browsed the source.
There are some excuses in the README... some noises about not providing documentation because there's no way to automate it. <rant>I DON'T GIVE A FUCK. At least write SOMETHING the fuck down! Examples, or a list of features; fucking ANYTHING would be better than "the source code is easy to read"! Pah!</rant>
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #230,025
10/18/05 10:47:38 PM
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Go to demos
[link|http://openrico.org/rico/demos.page|http://openrico.org/rico/demos.page]
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Post #230,027
10/18/05 11:03:20 PM
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Didn't see that link anywhere...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #230,030
10/19/05 3:45:01 AM
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Seems it's "script.aculo.us", not "script.acul.ous". HTH!
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Post #230,065
10/19/05 12:39:01 PM
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Thx - Fixed
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,048
3/16/05 1:30:39 PM
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Re: If that's the case...
[link|http://www.bindows.net/|Bindows] is cool, but it's not open source
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Post #199,004
3/16/05 11:46:24 AM
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Holy-- You-- Son of a Blanchard
You always get the cool tech.
:(
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Post #199,197
3/17/05 10:46:49 AM
8/21/07 12:39:47 PM
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I have plenty of dull projects too
like I18N infrastructure. Adopted ICU, educated people, wrote a perl wrapper for some of it, developed tech to move string literals out of code, etc. Mind numbingly boring but I happen to be expert on the topic by virtue of etranslate experience.
The js lib is probably the coolest and most visible thing I have. It is way cool though.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,002
3/16/05 11:44:45 AM
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Too bad Ajah isn't a Greek hero
They should have just called it "HttpRequest". It's a shame that the methods are named "XMLHttpRequest", etc. because you don't have to return XML, or even HTML. I'm finding a lot of the Requests I write are best returning "OK". Take [link|http://www.aminus.org/rbre/tibia/demo/tibia.py|Tibia], the DOM webpage editor I wrote a while back. The demo is version 0.1, and "saving your work" consists of
1. Hit "Save".
2. Wait for the popup to show.
3. Wait for it to complete.
4. Stop and read the reply to make sure it was successful.
5. Close the popup.
6. Now that you're horribly out of flow, try to recall what you were doing.
The next version (which I have to finish one of these days ;) --needs undo) will be:
1. Hit "Save".
2. Go on about your business. The save button will disable if the save operation is successful (until you dirty your doc again). If something goes wrong, you get an alert.
You can do the same thing with hidden frames, of course. I guess part of the appeal of Ajax is what Todd and other teams like his are doing: building modules on top of the tech. I haven't seen much of that with IFRAMEs. But it's really more about the confluence of Ajax and RESTful design.
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Post #199,005
3/16/05 11:46:43 AM
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Same question to you then:
Are there any FOSS toolkits out there yet?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #199,012
3/16/05 11:51:45 AM
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Yes, but I haven't used any so can't recommend one
Dojo is the only one that springs to mind (and I think Ajax is just part of their kit IIRC). Mentioned on this [link|http://www.ajaxian.com/|Ajax blog], which probably has other pointers.
Bah. Now I'm fifteen minutes late for work again. Why does responding to posts take so much longer than reading them? ;)
The Sig: "Despite the seemingly endless necessity for doing
so, it's actually not possible to reverse-engineer intended invariants
from staring at thousands of lines of code (not in C, and not in
Python code either)." Tim Peters on python-dev
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Post #199,017
3/16/05 11:57:29 AM
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Thanks.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #199,128
3/16/05 9:55:48 PM
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The quirksmode guy has an interesting take on it.
[link|http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/03/ajax_promise_or.html|http://www.quirksmod...x_promise_or.html] When I first read Jesse James Garrett's article Ajax: A New Approach to Web Applications my reactions were "What a silly name", and "Not really new, is it?" Although both points of critique have been repeatedly and heatedly mentioned in the ensuing discussion, the concept seems to be taking the Web development community by storm. This can mean one of two things: either it's a promise or it's a hype. To decide the case, I offer an annotated link dump. Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #199,176
3/17/05 9:20:27 AM
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Another article on AJAX.
A co-worker passed this along to me today. A pretty decent read.
[link|http://news.com.com/Web+tools+blaze+trail+to+the+past/2100-1032_3-5621010.html?tag=nefd.lede|http://news.com.com/...tml?tag=nefd.lede]
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,209
3/17/05 11:47:55 AM
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Microsoft misses the boat. Again.
The Microsoft spokesman was complaining about how people are just now catching up to what they were shipping in the last century.
That's because it is only now that there is the user base for it.
Even today before doing something that breaks Netscape 4 I think about the question. Even today I would not introduce a dependence on XMLHttpRequest in a website aimed at the general public because I don't want to lose the several percent of business that would shut people out.
If Microsoft produces a really great technology, then I'll think about it in 2010. After everyone else supports it and it has been well adopted. If it doesn't produce really big benefits over other approaches, I might wait a few more years than that.
(This doesn't just hold for Microsoft of course...)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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