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New Question about Christianity from the BBC
I was listening to the BBC this morning and they interviewed an Anglican Archbishop from Nigeria. The interviewer asked the Archbishop for his views on homosexuality. The Archbishop answered that the Bible (in Leviticus)prohibits homosexuality and therefore it is not biblical and the Church cannot condone it, ordain homosexuals etc. The interviewer then asked, the Bible has hundreds of prohibitions in Leviticus which you (and all Christians) don't keep, such as wearing a garment of linen and wool, eating pork, etc. Why is it biblical to do those things but it is not biblical to be a homosexual? In other words how do you decide which prohibitions in Leviticus are binding (homosexuality) and which are not (just about everything else)? The Archbishop had no real answer. This question has intrigued me about Christianity for years, any answers here?
New It depends on your view of the Bible.
Unlike Islam, Christianity[0] doesn't necessarily view its holy book as the literal word of God. This means that there is a certain amount of latitude when interpreting books like Leviticus.

One viewpoint is that Leviticus is a description the laws and customs of a nomadic tribespeople some thousands of years ago, rather than being a prescriptive guide to good Christian living.
[0] Christianity comes in many flavours. I am aware of Bible literalists. They're on a very sticky wicket.


Peter
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New Still doesn't explain how some things are picked
like the prohibition on homosexuality and most other things are not.

It seems hypocritical to say homosexuality is prohibited because of Leviticus when you ignore the next verse which prohibits other things (like pork).
New It's about the pragmatic view.
While it's clearly not a matter of deep doctrinal importance to avoid eating certain foods, it probably is when you're talking about the core of that which makes us human, to whit: our sexuality, love for our fellow humans and our need to reproduce.

Given that there's so much interpretation of the Bible anyway, it seems unnecessarily nitpicky to say that just because some parts of a particular book are taken as more important than others, it's hypocritical.

Or does having a flexible approach based on pragmatic, contextually-driven (in both the literary and contemporary cultural senses) analysis make me a flip-flopper?

:-)


Peter
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New The interesting thing about it is ...
that the bible doesn't seem to make these kinds of distinctions. The bible lumps together all kinds of prohibitions with no distinction being made.
New Here's an angle on the milieu, here in the Empire HQ
via my fav local movie critic / philosopher, [link|http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/20/PKGAB98ANO1.DTL| Mick LaSalle].

But I believe this wonderfully concise description addresses much more than just the nature of some of his mail - it goes to the psychological zeigeist, some reasons for our LOUD/screaming radio 'talk shows'; the basis for the popularity of such demagogues as Hannity and O'Reilly, to name just two:
Dear Mr. LaSalle: Have you ever considered publishing a book containing the most off-the-wall, rabidly angry and downright weird mail you undoubtedly receive?

Scott Pearson, Oakland

Dear Mr. Pearson: No, and you wouldn't want to read it, either. The sort of letters I sometimes print here represent the sane tip of a pretty disturbed iceberg, and it's that way for anyone in media. Much of the public, it seems, has replaced religious faith or spiritual practice with idolatry, either of a sick popular culture or sick politicians. The result is a lot of people who are both rabid and miserable, attached to things that give them no inner sustenance and yet deeply protective of those things. At least that's my theory. You might expect that such a mind-set might at least produce interesting mail, but the sameness and sadness of it all are only disheartening.
Your example, Leviticus - was in fact 'played out' on one of the early versions of the rather popular (in one polarity) TV What-If? presidential soap opera, The West Wing.

This was, IIRC in its first year. A Fright-wing lady / demagogue was with some others meeting the President. There was an Interesting exchange of the sort of example-selecting you decribe;

Ex: ~~
Pres: (confronting Ms. Authority Figure, a 'Doctor' in her title. Doctor of English Lit, it turns out.):

So then, must I kill my Chief of Staff personally, or may I delegate the task - he often works on The Sabbath. And about my daughter, should she choose [something, forgotten] - would I have to stone her myself?
My neighbor, who plants more than one crop in adjacent fields: how shoud he be killed?


The hypocrisy combined with Certainty, inconsistency complicated by the perpetually feuding splinter sects: guarantees that you can never know what One 'Christian' thinks/believes/Believes! = OrElseYouDieHorribly&Repeatedly, sucker -- but currently it matters little: nobody is listening except to their own comfort-oracle. Shout-radio is the proof of the pervasiveness of mental deterioration.

ie.
Non-Communication is our Largest industry in '05..
(And the major means of Neoconman persistence in power)
Can't you infer most of that just by watching Our President 'talk'?
New Christians usually cite Paul instead to avoid that problem.
E.g. [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Romans%201:18-32|Romans 1:18-32].

I was taught that the New Testament supersceded the Old Testament. That's why, e.g., all of the Sabbath prohibitions weren't emphasized in the churches I attended.

It seems to me that the passages from Leviticus are cited by well-read Christians who like to pick and choose passages to attempt to win arguments, or by Chrisitans who haven't studied the Bible on their own and are just parroting what they've heard from others. It's a dishonest way of arguing from a Chrisitan perspective, IMHO, because it's picking and choosing.

I'm surprised that the Anglican Archbishop from Nigeria didn't realize the perils in citing Leviticus from a Christian perspective. It seems to me that that is one of the first things that a seminary student should be able to address.

I find the last passage in the cite from Romans interesting:

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, Godhaters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Maybe we should have a Constitutional Amendment against gossip, greed and disobeying one's parents too. ;-j

Hey Joe! I think you just need to cite this passage to keep your cell phone bill in check. :-)

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who thinks that Paul really messed up Christianity.)
New so paul sez its okay to eat shrimp so why not sperm?
picky bastards, those xians.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New They do study that in seminary
...however, that doesn't stop Christian leaders from having divergent views on the matter. There are three main views:

1. Everything in the Old Testament is to be "brought down"--Christians are responsible to keep all of the Old Law.
2. Nothing is transferred--Christians can do whatever they want. Throw away the Old Testament.
3. (What my college taught:) Jesus gave the apostles authority to interpret the events of his life and how they relate to the Old Covenant. Pay attention to what the apostles paid attention to. If they talk about homosexuality, and refer to the Law as a good thing on that issue, they're probably right. If they never mention pork or linen, why should we quibble over it?
New Also.
Referring to Paul again, he mentions in 1 Corinthians about when some things be good and when they are not. The example he cites is about eating meat prohibited by the Old Testament. For some Christians, seeing another Christian violating that is troublesome, which is Paul's point.

Whilst the issue of homosexuality is hard to apply under the same guidelines, I can see how it could be. The trouble is when those in authority in the church fail to recognise when their decisions in this could damage the faith of those in their charge.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New It's all a matter of interpretation
IMO, the leaders of the church find homosexuality more offensive than eating pork so they adhere to this one. They pick and choose what to condemn and what to condone. So they take the bible, which they say is a divine document, and adhere to the parts they find tolerable and revile things they find untolerable. In other words, they are overiding the divine word. Seems hypocritcal to me.

I happen to find eating pork more offensive than homosexuality, but that's just me.

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
New That's a very simplistic analysis.
It'd be true for Islam; the Qu'ran is the literal word of God; no interpretation is allowed. Hadith are The Prophet's explanations of various parts of the Qu'ran, often cast in terms of his own life, and again, no interpretation is allowed. [0]

The Bible makes no claim to divine origin; its authors are sometimes known, sometimes not. Leviticus is widely considered to be a conglomerate of earlier sources, all of them very human.

Of course, this makes Bible literalists look really rather foolish. Bonkers, say I.
[0] A distinction is made between Sunnah (the Prophet's life) and Hadith (stories of the Prophet's life and what he approved).


Peter
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New Well, personally . . .
. . I am presuming pig tastes a lot better than homosexuals, though I have experience only on the pig side. I really don't give a hoot about the "homosexual lifestile" as long as they don't mess with mine.

Actually, they have messed with my lifestyle a bit by spreading Aids all over the place and I'm a bit resentful of that, but the impact hasn't been that great and they're already being punished for it.

Ooooops, attached to wrong spot - oh well.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus Feb. 27, 2005, 12:50:03 PM EST
New Isn't it a pity that www.manbeef.com is no more?


Peter
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New Also...
...it's straight people who are spreading AIDS hither and yon faster than anyone else.


Peter
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New In Africa, yes . .
. . which is where Aids is really ripping things up these days. It spreads easily through heterosexual contact when other diseases have already weakened the system.

In the U.S. there's still typically a male homosexual or bisexual vector nearby, though hetrosexual transmission is certainly significant, again particularly in the "less advantaged" communities where other diseases assist.

The original fast spread of Aids in the U.S. was by the male homosexual community who's practices make them particularly vulnerable, and particularly by a certain Canadian airline host who did it deliberately and gloated "By the way, I have 'the disease', so you probably have it now too". He should have been strangled right off.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Maybe
But I dont have much use for organized religion so I dont waste time pondering over it.
If you ask me, organized religion exists for only a few reasons:
1. To provide a social outlet
2. To prevent the moral demise of society
3. To offer an explanation for things that science hasnt yet explained
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
New Unorganized religions not any better
What with all the Elvis and UFO sightings.
New 4. To elect their own trained idiots to power



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:42:50 AM EDT
New Re: Maybe
A nit with 3). These matters have been pretty well dissected (even) here, across the eons. The 'scientific method' obv cannot apply to metaphysical ponderings, you might concede (?) Nope, no testing, experiment by peers, Michelson-Morley speed-of-Dark to 6 significant figures, etc.

And nobody will get anywhere.. attempting to find language to 'prove' that the idea even, of meta?physics is either necessary or, ahem realizable -- given the sordid state of most frantic Jelloware in the Age of transistorized speeding-up and time-filling to neural overload.

Given all the grounds for cynicism re most homo-sap mutterings, ratified daily by capitalism / the actual extant US religion - I'd assert that one can simply elide the corporate theologies and 'religions', investigate for oneself; exactly as all the memorable ancient Honchos did their foraging. What's to lose?



Then.. if you Find Something umm transcendental? Keep it to Yourself! or some idiot will start YAN New Religion and today, prolly with a \ufffd. (We never hear from/about the quiet ones, who just smile a lot. Love. It.)

Carrion
New to provide a place of safety for the spiritually troubled
where you can go dump all your misgivings, anger, bad faith decisions and immoral acts, where you come out feeling spiritually refreshed. Kind of like a crapper for the soul.
thanx,
boxley
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New You can do all that without belonging to a church
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
     Question about Christianity from the BBC - (bluke) - (21)
         It depends on your view of the Bible. - (pwhysall) - (4)
             Still doesn't explain how some things are picked - (bluke) - (3)
                 It's about the pragmatic view. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                     The interesting thing about it is ... - (bluke)
                 Here's an angle on the milieu, here in the Empire HQ - (Ashton)
         Christians usually cite Paul instead to avoid that problem. - (Another Scott) - (3)
             so paul sez its okay to eat shrimp so why not sperm? - (boxley)
             They do study that in seminary - (FuManChu)
             Also. - (static)
         It's all a matter of interpretation - (bionerd) - (11)
             That's a very simplistic analysis. - (pwhysall) - (10)
                 Well, personally . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                     Isn't it a pity that www.manbeef.com is no more? -NT - (pwhysall)
                     Also... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         In Africa, yes . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                 Maybe - (bionerd) - (5)
                     Unorganized religions not any better - (ChrisR)
                     4. To elect their own trained idiots to power -NT - (tuberculosis)
                     Re: Maybe - (Ashton)
                     to provide a place of safety for the spiritually troubled - (boxley) - (1)
                         You can do all that without belonging to a church -NT - (bionerd)

Besides, we all have spell check these days, right?
86 ms