Thanks anyway.

Post #196,237 by folkert 2/24/05 5:10:50 PM Reply	Thanks anyway. But I need single shot scripts. You see, I have to deal with a "Flush and Forget" person who doesn't care. And a "30 seconds of Explanation == Eyes Glassed over" who can only learn things in small... small pieces. I've built a document publish system in three different environments. Neither one of them can even begin to fathom the options. The three all push-button, inline output to a printer, a file or network service. They can take any kind of data source and perform nearly anything on it then pipe to a socket if need be. It can work with a fifo, a named pipe, a file. It uses TeX, Perl, bash and soon Python. Easy to use for them... everything explained in help... easy Neither one can use them. Even though all they have to do is follow the numbers, locate the files,documents and printers... But they rather would use Microsoft WORD in all of its FOUL variants. (today was a bad day for Me with Microsoft Word) But, thanks again. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #196,242 by broomberg 2/24/05 5:38:58 PM Reply	I'm in the reverse mode Just gave feedback on the new SOP that includes 50 pages of screenshots with explanation. I gotta admit, it feels neat when a system I write is in broad use, and it does enough to deserve training materials.
Post #196,247 by ben_tilly 2/24/05 6:11:34 PM Reply	I still think that it is neater... to have a system in broad use that is intuitive enough that the users don't feel the need for training materials. :-) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #196,252 by broomberg 2/24/05 6:40:55 PM Reply	hahahahahahahahahahah Well, I've loaded it full of "tooltips" to attempt to minimize the need, and have done my due diligence to make sure people can't abuse it. [link\|http://www.voicenet.com/~broom/timeout.jpg\|http://www.voicenet....broom/timeout.jpg] But since this is really the front-end to a complex workflow crossing 4 departments with totally different skillsets, it is unreasonable to expect "intuitive" usage.
Post #196,253 by ben_tilly 2/24/05 6:53:26 PM Reply	I didn't say feasible :-P I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #196,260 by folkert 2/24/05 8:12:39 PM Reply	Agreed. I am seriously frustrated with M$ products of wordprocessing. I don't like the way it is "casual" with registration, automaticness, "Oh, I can do that better than you"-ness, etc... I was (and still am) so sick of it, I built the publishing system. It does letters, envelopes, brochures, postcards, flyers, trifold, bi-folds, Letter/Legal/11x17 pretty much any paper size that the PPD for the printer supports. If we had a color laser or color dye-sub printer it could do those too. If the customer has a word doc, I print it to a .ps import it, preview it with markup, test print, it can do a four way merge (for data sources) with conditionals. Allows for absoute and relative positioning, TeX takes care of type setting. It can aso use the PDF as a form and then populate the areas needing printing. and get a final doc looking awesome. About the only thing I cannot do is help these two understand it. And it prompts them for nearly everything. When the first field in the printing dialog is filled out, they then find the datasource, then they cut and paste the text, drag and drop the fields into the locations either in-line, relative (like a picture) or absolute (like and address to be in a Windowed envelope). I have even install cygwin-xfre on both computers for them. So all they have to do is Double-click on the icon and it displays within 20 seconds. The only thing different for them from Windows... it file locations. /home/user/MyDocuments/datafile , /data/jobfiles/8chrcust/jobordernum/fancy.doc, etc... /home/user == H: from Windows, /data == S: from windows, /data/jobfiles/ == T: with special locking features to eliminate locking problems with the datasources if there are any. I do not understand the aversion I see from them. I have asked them what is wrong with it. They both say, nothing, they like the ability to get consistent look and feel of the printed stuff. I like it cause I can save setups and just change a few things for repeat jobs but slightly different. I think that they both do not wanna "change" the modus-operandi. Me, I use it nearly everyday. But, I use the CLI interface to it... except for the doc editing, it spawns texmacs and I force it to save in TeX. Of course, TeX is very simple for me to use. It feel like a super-enhanced XHTML on steroids. I can do nearly anything I want. Best part is, I can setup a complet pub in about a half hour, starting from scratch unless it is hugely complex. The one bad thing is, we don't have enough printers. It seems like we get a ton of jobs with laser impressions at the same time! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #196,265 by Another Scott 2/24/05 8:35:28 PM Reply	Sounds like a wonderful app. I can't stand Word97. I've never bothered to read a manual for it, in any depth. It claims to be friendly but it has the most annoying ways of helping. Changing ":)" into a SmileyFace is controlled by the Spellchecker? How is a new user supposed to know that? I want back the weeks of my life spent over the last 7-ish years fighting with it.... I'm constantly frustrated by its automatically jumping in and changing a number into a numbered paragraph, or not doing so when I want it to, or changing indents when I don't want it to, etc. And don't get me started on how it changes positioning of graphics files on the page, and page breaks, when I change from a Lexmark PS printer to a Canon i550. What I usually have to do to preserve formatting for other readers is to print to PS, then convert it to .PDF with Ghostscript and distribute the .PDF. Of course, PowerPoint97 is worse in many respects. Yeah, yeah, "RTFM". Thanks. ;-) It would be really nice if the now defunct [link\|http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n3/describe.html\|DeScribe 5] had modern import and export filters. That was a wonderful word processor (for OS/2 and Win32). Your application sounds wonderful. Is there any way you can benefit from it outside of work? In other words, is there a public version? Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #196,276 by folkert 2/24/05 10:07:27 PM Reply	It works and IMNSHO easy to use... But Ugly. I am not an Interface prettyfier. Are there bugs?? Yes. But I fix em as I find em. Public release, unfortuneately Company Owner == Program Owner. He wants $$$$ from competitors... Since this app allows use to easily "DO" tax bills for townships, counties and states... All in a single pass. I just don;t have the ability to understand the Sorting stuff for the USPS. But then again the MM is HYARGE! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #196,320 by Arkadiy 2/25/05 10:30:56 AM Reply	For directory locations may be you could use cygwin links to nake things more familiar to them. I had cygwin's /home/Arkadiy point at My Documents before. -- And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings? -- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
Post #196,323 by folkert 2/25/05 11:05:07 AM Reply	True... but the app is running on... A Linux machine. The icon starts cygwin with xfree and then executes an ssh execte on the other end to display the app on the Windows Desktop. I keep having to explain to them... the idea behind Linux and Filesystems. One of these days, the Flush-n-Forget will see the light as soon as he can't figure out howto do it in Word. The Glassy-Eyed one, will just have to sit in front of it for days at a time to "get it" In any case, I have considered letting the app run on Windows2K/2K3/XP/XP-MCE/XP-SP2(which it can). My only problem with it is that I can't control things as much. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #196,332 by Arkadiy 2/25/05 12:00:42 PM Reply	Can they access raw files on the Unix machine? Can they double-click a file in Windows to show a document? Do scare black rectangular windows show up? YOu have to think as (l)user there. Just like you feel hamstrung in less-than-capable shell, they feel hamstrung w/o double click, drag-and-drop, point-and-drool. -- And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings? -- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
Post #196,325 by ben_tilly 2/25/05 11:10:29 AM Reply	Lemme guess, do they have trouble... with the concept of the filesystem? You know, folders within folders. If they're missing that, then even a simple system may become black magic with incomprehensible incantations that have no apparent rhyme or reason. And a lot of people miss exactly that. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #196,328 by folkert 2/25/05 11:38:11 AM Reply	Not really. Though the Flush-N-Forget used to be an MPE admin. Dunno HOW. And he also used to use Novell Netware v2.15 and v3.1x The Glassy-eyed does get the concept of a directory... and a directory inside a directory... but just barely. I'd rather train the Glassy-Eyed as she at least TRIES and is trainable, the Flush-N-Forget doesn't care enough to even double check his work. I've given the FnF multiple "teach yourself" books on Perl, Shell, Windows Scripting, VB, etc... he only whats to know RPG and is clinging to it like nothing I have ever seen. The farthest he has gotten is Chapter 3 in "Teach yourself Perl in 24 Hours". Has been there for 2 months now. He'd rather surf the Web or have a smoke out in the shop... etc. Until the Boss wants me to limit his surfing times. I can't get the Dongle to work proper with WinXP for the OS/36 emulator environ he has, which was written in 1989 for (MS/PC)DOS-v3.x Win98 non-SE was the last version of M$ products it worked on. He doesn't wanna switch to FreeDOS (which it works under in Linux with dosemu) or Linux as his desktop. So he has 2 machines one for daily stuff, one for only the RPG setup. He sees me using Linux and tasking Windows as a proggy under Linux... and he doesn't wanna learn. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]

Welcome to IWETHEY!