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New I need to write a small app like it's a big one
First I'll learn how to make it scalable and bulletproof. Then I'll worry about when I can ignore some of that.

As for MVC being a panacea, that's not what I'm thinking. I think that keeping it as a goal makes it more likely I'll ask the questions that may prevent pain farther down the road. I'm more interested in the fifth iteration of a project than the first.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Huh, most people are trying to figure out the opposite
Seriously, just do the simplest thing you can and get it working. Then we can help you elaborate and refactor.

Something like proxool will take you pretty far if its just a crud app.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New This is classic
You're driving straight towards the overdesigned application which solves a ton of problems that you weren't ever going to have, and is a complete PITA to work with because of all of the overhead. Plus if it ever did get under load it would fall over because somewhere you'll have a design problem, and because the design is heavyweight, it will take more work to track that down and fix.

Remember that a scaleable application is like a mack truck. Great when you need it, but not very convenient for the daily commute.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Um, ...
Couldn't you write that first paragraph as a general description of any Java application development endeavor?

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New No. Exceptions exist. But generally, yes.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Not exactly
You're driving straight towards the overdesigned application which solves a ton of problems that you weren't ever going to have ...
Keep in mind what problem I'm actually trying to solve: passing an interview for a java position. I need to be familiar with the techniques for heavyweight development.

In my current job, 90% of what we do each day could be done by a decent programmer who's known the language for about a month. I suspect a lot of internal development is the same way. Draw a form, process the input, update the database, show the results. If we interviewed for that, we'd never know who could handle the other 10%.

So no, I don't need a scalable interface for managing my photos. What I do need is a practice project I can use to learn the techniques I will need for large projects.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Good luck
There are many sets of buzzwords that might be applied to a given large project. You'll need luck to pick the same set for your personal project as your interview wants...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ah - so that's what you're trying to do
You didn't say so.

The thing is - most of that kind of architecture is approached incrementally starting with naive and simple and then benchmarking and refactoring as appropriate. A few things are sort of self-evident. Like thread safety is worth pursuing from the beginning. But more elaborate load distribution techniques are typically approached incrementally.

You might do better to do some [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764543857/qid=1107306865/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-2959288-0102521?v=glance&s=books&n=507846|reading].

For my money, Rod Johnson is pretty much the most objective writer on J2EE out there.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Time to hit the library
Hope they have it in. They tend to be about a year behind on Java, and that's a 2003.


Interesting thing I found while looking around for used copies of it. In [link|http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=RodJohnsonInterview|this interview] the author says:
Some of the most important parts of the framework used in the book aren't available in existing projects. For example, the JavaBeans packages are more sophisticated than existing equivalents such as the Apache BeanUtils that came from Struts. I would have loved to find a similar JDBC abstraction layer but I couldn't.
I'm currently downloading the db framework you pointed me at, but it looks like for some reason jdbc frameworks seem to be lagging a lot of other pieces.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New That's an old interview.
What you want is the [link|http://www.springframework.org|Spring framework], which is basically everything Rod talks about in his book as an actual project, and then some.

We're using it at work and it's a beaut as far as Java frameworks go. JDBC made sane, EJB-like stuff without EJB headaches, etc.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Gold mine
[link|http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=SpringFramework|This] and even moreso [link|http://www.springframework.org/docs/MVC-step-by-step/Spring-MVC-step-by-step.html|this] are what I was looking for.

Peter, check them out.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Moochos grassy arse


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Several copies of Rod's book around here.
It's useful for defusing "I read about this nifty J2EE thinger on the web"-itis.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Q on book.
At your recommendation I bought that book. Then, I changed responsiblities at work (no longer a developer). But I am now responsible for setting up things like Tomcat (and later maybe JBoss) and making sure they're always online. I'm reading up on Tomcat 5 right now (Professional Tomcat 5 by wrox) and I have it running (my still remaining trick is to get an iSeries "Webfacing" app running on it - along with a list of other stuff that has to be fixed). From strictly an admin's POV, would I be better off to go through Rod's book first or, realizing that I will likely never actually write a Java app, would you recommend any other book(s)?

TIA.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Rod's book isn't for administrators
Although you're likely to find some material of use, you're better off finding a Tomcat-specific book like you have.

If you anticipate getting into arguments with developers about the Right Way to Do Things, then his book would probably be useful from the standpoint of understanding what's going on and how things should be architected.

Check the contents to see if there aren't a few deployment chapters at the end or what not, though. I don't have my copy handy.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Ok, thanks.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
     When does a java constructor execute? - (drewk) - (56)
         When you say 'new' - (tuberculosis) - (41)
             Word from the IGM on ziwt says ... I was wrong - (drewk) - (40)
                 I think you've got it - (tuberculosis) - (11)
                     Would be nice to say that in the docs - (drewk) - (10)
                         That's missing for most languages - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                             Like Drew, I'm trying to teach myself Java. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                 "Effective Java" => oxymoron :-) -NT - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                     "Microsoft Works" -NT - (drewk)
                                 What would he know about it? - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                     That's an oddly visceral response. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         Symptomatic of general J-headed attitude - (tuberculosis)
                         Re: Would be nice to say that in the docs - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                             That's it exactly - (drewk)
                             I'd give up on Morphic - (tuberculosis)
                 Now I'm getting frustrated (again) - (drewk) - (27)
                     Re: Now I'm getting frustrated (again) - (admin) - (1)
                         Badness - (jake123)
                     Servlets and business logic - (warmachine) - (22)
                         So is this example stupid? - (drewk) - (21)
                             Hell, yeah! - (warmachine) - (1)
                                 Re: Hell, yeah! - (admin)
                             Way stupid - (tuberculosis) - (18)
                                 Trying to learn The Right Way[tm] - (drewk) - (17)
                                     No such way - (tuberculosis) - (16)
                                         I need to write a small app like it's a big one - (drewk) - (15)
                                             Huh, most people are trying to figure out the opposite - (tuberculosis)
                                             This is classic - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                                                 Um, ... - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                     No. Exceptions exist. But generally, yes. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                 Not exactly - (drewk) - (10)
                                                     Good luck - (ben_tilly)
                                                     Ah - so that's what you're trying to do - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                                         Time to hit the library - (drewk) - (3)
                                                             That's an old interview. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                 Gold mine - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                     Moochos grassy arse -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                         Several copies of Rod's book around here. - (admin) - (3)
                                                             Q on book. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                 Rod's book isn't for administrators - (admin) - (1)
                                                                     Ok, thanks. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                     That's not what they are saying - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                         Servlets and page scoped variables. - (warmachine)
         Re: When does a java constructor execute? - (dshellman) - (13)
             There is a certain amount of value... - (admin) - (1)
                 I already know that - (drewk)
             s/Tomcat/Jetty/ - (tuberculosis) - (10)
                 Based on what? - (admin) - (9)
                     Personal experience - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                         A couple of years back, sure. - (admin) - (7)
                             Oh Tomcat 5 - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                 Reminds me of Spolsky's piece on Netscape - (FuManChu) - (5)
                                     And I remember disagreeing with it the first time - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                         Makes sense to me. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                             Know what you mean - (tuberculosis)
                                         It's a threshold thing - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                             And that point is completely true - (ben_tilly)

Ugh. Too bony for soup.
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