Post #191,871
1/27/05 2:05:49 AM
1/27/05 2:06:20 AM
|
Switching jobs, ethical issue
I just received a very good offer which I am going to take to switch jobs. The new job is better in many ways. The company where I work now is giving out bonuses at the end of the month. While it is technically a bonus it is really part of your salary, in my contract there is a bonus target (approximately 1 months salary). Basically, the bonus is a way for the company to save money by deferring payment and not paying any social benefits on the money. It also makes the employees feel good (the same way many people feel when they get a refund from the IRS). In essence it is really considered part of your compensation. In fact, when they made me an offer they specifically stated that I shouldn't look just at the salary but also take the bonus into account since basically everyone gets a bonus.
My question is when should I give notice to my current employer. If I give notice tomorrow (before the end of January) they may decide not to give me the bonus which in many ways I feel is really coming to me, I worked hard the last year and contributed to the success of the product and company. On the other hand if I wait until the first of the month to give notice, I feel in some way like I am getting the bonus money on a false pretense. I don't want to burn my bridges here, so I don't want to leave on a bad note.
Any thoughts?
Edited by bluke
Jan. 27, 2005, 02:06:20 AM EST
|
Post #191,881
1/27/05 6:25:07 AM
|
Tough to leave
I am finding it really difficult. I did not look for a new job. Basically it fell into my lap. A friend of mine who used to work with me called me up and said that her company was looking for someone with my skills so I sent her my resume.
There is no question that it is a better job with more responsibilities, but here at my current job my boss is starting to rely on me more and give me more responsibility (although no promotions). I feel bad about leaving.
|
Post #191,885
1/27/05 7:05:29 AM
|
Here's the thing about company loyalty.
The company does not reciprocate. That's why they pay you.
People leave, and they don't always leave at a convenient moment. While you might feel bad about leaving, I would suggest that although such a notion paints you as a person of noble mind, it shouldn't be a factor in whether or when you actually DO leave.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #191,890
1/27/05 7:31:22 AM
|
You are absolutely right
Last time I was laid off it was right before a holiday weekend, it killed everyone's holiday.
I just had a meeting with my boss where he told me how much the bonus is, how much they appreciate me, and that they are giving me stock options because lately my performance has been really good. It makes it hard for me to go to my boss next Tuesday or Wednesday and say I am leaving. I am going to do it but it will be hard.
|
Post #191,883
1/27/05 6:59:54 AM
|
make sure...
...of what pay the money will be in...and give notice the day after payroll cycle...usually about a week prior to check issuance.
Then play dumb :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #191,889
1/27/05 7:27:58 AM
|
Actually the money is deposited electronically ...
into my account on the first of the month.
|
Post #191,891
1/27/05 7:37:26 AM
|
The bonus is based on past performance.
You're entitled to it. Do what you need to do to get it.
If you're worried about the timing, can you have your new job start a little later?
I'm sure that while they'll be disappointed to have you leave, your current employer knows your value and won't want to burn bridges with you either. At least if they have any sense...
Bottom line: You have no control over how they react. You've held up your end of the bargain. Do what's best for you. If they react poorly, then they likely would have reacted poorly in some other circumstance if you stayed.
Luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #191,905
1/27/05 8:11:05 AM
|
Thanks for the answer
|
Post #191,910
1/27/05 8:35:55 AM
|
Give your current employer a chance to better the offer
They may surprise you. :-)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #191,913
1/27/05 8:54:17 AM
1/27/05 9:03:04 AM
|
The advice I always heard
was never accept a counteroffer. See [link|http://www.4nextstep.com/coffer.htm|Ten Reasons for Not Accepting a Counter Offer], [link|http://www.coloradosearch.com/counteroffer.html|Never Accept a Counteroffer] and many more stories.
Basically, it doesn't work.
In any case, it is not just the money (although I am getting a large raise), the new job is a much better one in terms of technology and responsibility.
Edited by bluke
Jan. 27, 2005, 09:03:04 AM EST
|
Post #191,915
1/27/05 8:55:19 AM
|
Same advice I've been given.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #191,934
1/27/05 9:56:21 AM
|
Yeah, I'd go with that.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #191,945
1/27/05 10:49:15 AM
|
Agreed 100%
-YendorMike
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
|
Post #192,065
1/28/05 2:25:17 AM
|
Thanks, I learned something
I retract my bad advice which was based on a passing thought.
I've only once been in a position where I was quitting and was offered a counteroffer. I was rather uninclined to take it. (And didn't.) But that was for other reasons.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
|
Post #191,923
1/27/05 9:27:21 AM
|
NO!
While it MAY work out, the odds are vastly against you.
You are no longer "loyal", you have already extorted money from them, you will never be trusted again. Your boss' job (no matter how "nice" he is) is to transfer your responsibilities to someone else and then cause you enough pain to make you want to leave.
Do NOT leave on his terms, leave on yours.
|
Post #191,930
1/27/05 9:42:48 AM
|
The clock is ticking.
Since you are planing to start a new job, make sure that all your decisions make that the first priority (i.e. putting off your new "best" friends for a week or two more is not a wise decision). Other than that, it's your call how you want to balance the money vs. the good will.
About this time last year, I also walked away from a job of many years that had the prospect of long term security. Went to work for a startup. We also had the prospect of a bonus in front of us, but I decided to forego the amount (a couple hundred bucks was just not that enticing, especially since I could make that amount of money moonlighting if I had to). Anyhow, I gave them four weeks notice, which allowed me a significant amount of time to document the processes and code. Definitely didn't burn the bridge. Even got two weeks vacation overlapping. My former employer wanted me to do some moonlighting over the next few months to get them squared away with hipaa requirements. Easy money from my part, but I've decided to turn it down. Too much time working already, and the kids aren't getting any younger.
Anyhow, if it were me, I'd be concerned mostly with the new job. Get the old one out of the way, as it is now just a distraction.
|
Post #191,938
1/27/05 10:10:14 AM
|
TAKE THE MONEY!
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
|
Post #191,976
1/27/05 1:47:26 PM
|
As numerous job counselors have said to me
"A company has no soul" which they translate into "People running companies today have no souls. Everything is bottom line, and your loyalty is appreciated and generally used against you whenever convenient for the company."
To paraphrase their speeches: Make sure you get the cash. Give notice. Walk out on the day planned and don't look back. Be polite when you do, and pray some day you can get revenge on anyone there who deserves it, because revenge is better than Christmas.
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
|
Post #192,001
1/27/05 2:50:08 PM
|
Ooh, you're a sad man.
You remind me of this:
[link|http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/characters/characters8.shtml|http://www.bbc.co.uk...characters8.shtml]
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #192,305
1/30/05 9:44:34 PM
|
real lame, dude
it's not even worth a groan
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
|
Post #192,031
1/27/05 6:31:04 PM
|
Its your bonus for work completed
earned honestly. If they gripe about you leaving right after that politely state your position and good luck on the new job.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
|
