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New Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong

For the sort of argument I'm describing, one's norms really don't matter; the argument runs something like this: "Evolution leads to the triumph of the fittest. Therefore the people who are on top (of society, of whatever) are the fittest. Therefore they deserve to be on top, and the status quo should be preserved." Regardless of the terms in which one measures success, those who come out ahead in that category are described as the "fittest" and the rest of the argument runs as normal.

\r\n\r\n

And it doesn't hold water mainly because it assumes that "fittest" is a static description, when in fact it is not.

\r\n\r\n

Also, when an organism evolves there never has to be a "good reason"; look at the panda's thumb for an example of this.

\r\n\r\n
--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New And there is the fallacy :-)
The assumption that those who are on top of our society are fittest evolutionarily is wrong. Evolutionarily a Donald Trump is less fit than a teenage girl with 4 kids. But you'll seldom find someone who is arguing that we should all emulate the teenager.

Secondly the "evolution implies that things shall remain as they are" argument that I mentioned only makes sense at equilibrium. But I pointed out that evolution has not had time to react to a lot of aspects of our current society, so (as I pointed out) evolution has little connection with what our society requires. (And evolution's goals differ from our societal ones.)

That argument remains true for most species, most of the time. But only because adaptation usually proceeds faster than environments change, so what is fittest now is pretty close to what everything is bred for. (Of course we're now changing our environment faster than evolution can go...)

Thirdly attempting to draw any norms from evolutionary principles is flawed at best. Evolution allows us to note, This seems to work. That doesn't mean that we want things to work like that. The result is kind of like using Machiavelli as your moral compass. There is no question that his strategies are effective. But they're not very nice.

Cheers,
Ben

PS Your reference to the Panda's thumb suggests that you've read at least some Gould. My comment about how things usually should remain as they are is why Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium says that, most of the time, things are at equilibrium. The exceptions are, of course, very important and not to be underestimated.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: And there is the fallacy :-)

Of course the assumption is wrong. But it's still been made time and time again. My point was simply to show that hard atheism using evolution as a crutch is just as easily bent to defense of the status quo (though usually it's obscured slightly in the guise of laissez-faire capitalism).

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New True
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Evangelical xians no better than everyone else - (tuberculosis) - (16)
         This is surprising? - (imric) - (6)
             Ignore - (tuberculosis)
             Pushy self righteous people who claim to know a better way - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 *shrug* - (imric) - (1)
                     Well.. the hypocrisy thing is pretty universal - (Ashton)
             The thing is - (jake123) - (1)
                 Interesting point - (JayMehaffey)
         The prescription: More of the same -NT - (ben_tilly)
         On the same topic, sort of. - (ubernostrum) - (7)
             Ah.. so then - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Status quo? - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                     Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                             And there is the fallacy :-) - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Re: And there is the fallacy :-) - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                     True -NT - (ben_tilly)

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