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New Do you honestly believe that this is from TCL???
TCL may have borrowed the design, but it is not the first (or even a particularly good) implementation of it.

Incidentally TCL isn't a "hidden secret of IT". It is well known in the IT world. It isn't particularly popular because it isn't particularly good. Perhaps someday you'll have enough experience to understand why from direct experience...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Amen
TCL sucks
New Re: Do you honestly believe that this is from TCL???
First sorry for the late reply

I am not sure what you mean when you say, that I really believe this comes
from TCL?

What does "this" refer to?

But I am guessing you probably mean the object, class separation thing!

And in that case no, not at all

XOTcl is just one of several OO extension for Tcl

And the designer of XOTcl made it that way!

I don't know how the other extension are made

But for example I heard of another OO extension for Tcl called Snit, which does not implement inheretence and advocate using delegation as a replacement!

And there is Incr Tcl, which I heard was designed after C++ OO model


I still think Tcl is a great language, and currently the one I am decide to learn, and XOTcl is the OO extension I am also decided upon!


I am slow, I know, and I quit half ways a lot, but for now and considering my career objectives to become a Developer/SysAdmin, or a SysAdmin/Developer, I think Tcl will work for me wonderfully


I said it's a best kept secret, for many reasons, one I heard other people call it that, two it's not very popular, three it's a lot better than most people think ...


That's all
New think you had better be a developer
clear lacking in logic and common sense for a sysadmin
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Funny; I was thinking the opposite ;)
New Ive met lots of developers that have no clue
not around here though but have/am working on the stupidest way to do things in java, perl, ksh (not my work mates they are very good)
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Neither
He needs to be an academic.

All puffery, no experience, no proof, no running applications required.

Not that ALL academics are like that, just it is easier to get away with it for the long haul.
New Let me get this straight
You want to be a developer, so you're learning a language that is little-used. How do you plan on being employed?

In case your market share isn't small enough, you're then limiting yourself even more by focussing on an OO extension that fragments that miniscule market even further.

And you're arguing that TCL is great with a group of people, many of whom are developers who've used TCL in the past and deliberately don't use it any more. And you don't see any cause to wonder if they might have a reason for that?

Yes, I'm sure that there are people who still think that TCL is great. They're wrong. I know that it is no longer popular. And I'm positive that you lack the experience base needed to really judge its quality.

Here's some background information for you.

The object model that you're so impressed by? That's straight from Smalltalk. Except that it works better there than in TCL because OO isn't an extension - everything in the language can be leveraged that way. People have only been playing with this since the 60's, which is probably before you were born.

And some TCL history for you. TCL originally was a scripting language based on the idea that the only real datatype that you needed was the string. Properly delimited strings can be interpreted as anything that you want. Arrays, hashes, etc. And, better yet, if you did everything this way then it is really easy to interface with C programs - you just pass a string. Which was the point, the language is Tool Command Language - the tools that made it useful are supposed to be extensions written in C.

The idea was fairly reasonable circa 1990, and the rapid emergence of some useful tools like Expect and Tk proved its value. Adoption was quick.

However the language ran into a few stumbling blocks.

First of all it didn't do the whole scripting language thing very well. At about the same time that TCL was becoming popular, so was Perl. And Perl was a lot better than TCL - you could write real programs in it. For instance while you were supposed to extend TCL in C, you were supposed to extend Perl in Perl. (You could extend Perl in C but doing it in Perl was a lot easier...) Perl avoided a lot of parsing overhead. It came up with a lot of big improvements in what regular expressions should do. And as a result, Perl wound up resetting expectations about what a scripting language should be.

Secondly many of the tools, while useful, were bad ways to develop software. For instance Expect makes it easy to automate an existing console program. However if you do that, the result is very fragile - unanticipated errors cannot readily be trapped. This is not a good way to develop complex software. It is a good way to build a quick and dirty bandaid but it will fall apart later.

Thirdly it turns out that while it was easier to build tools and integrate them with TCL, building bindings to other scripting languages isn't that hard in the end. As a result the big tools that made TCL popular, namely Tk and Expect, wound up with bindings for every other major scripting language. And with popularity the other scripting languages (particularly Perl) wound up with bindings to every useful library under the sun - including many which TCL did not get (or at least not as promptly).

The result is that by 1999 it was fairly obvious that TCL was on its way out as a major scripting language. TCL 8 was a major rewrite that, as I recall, made TCL internally move away from the "everything is a string" philosophy, which greatly improved its performance. However they didn't give up the stupid idea of trying to be POSIX compliant on regular expressions. (Hint: POSIX and Perl's extensions do not play together in any reasonable way.) And they didn't manage to turn around TCL's long-term trajectory.

So lots of people here have used TCL. We used it because at one time it was the only way to access some genuinely useful tools. But it wasn't very good, and as soon as those tools were available in a different environment, we moved away from TCL.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New very loud VD (clap clap clap)
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Then let me elaborate
Again thanx for your interest, your long elaborate replies are always sincere and humbling!
I am kinda shy to expose stuff that might be personal and not very interesting for others to hear, but again, maybe this will help me ...
I have to say a lil about my history to justify my choices, my degree is MIS, during the last year, it became clear to me, I AM A DONKEY, after 3 years in business school, and 2 years in engineering, I am going to graduate late and graduate without a skill!
Being skillful is very important to me, I don't want to do work that require no skill.
The net became my saviour, I surfed to learn, who is doing what, why, what is the best tool, what is systems analysis and design, what is a programming language, what does terminology x mean, how important it is to learn terminology x, etc ...
Of course nowadays we are living the dream, the net have all the answers and all the tool I need and they are free, I am saved, all I need it to take advantage of what is there and learn, and I can give back!
You know, I told you before, that I know you from your posts on perlmonks! your post on programming paradigms was enlightening to me.
There are many way to do programming, and to be good and skillful you should learn them all.
No excuse!
The best way to learn a paradigm is to learn a language that implements this paradigm.
I learn a little about a lot, I am extremely generalist, and I get bored really really fast, I get more excited over learning a solution, understand it, thinking about it than building it!
So did this lead me to Tcl?
Well, Tcl is easy to learn, so before I get bored, I would have probably learned enough to build something interesting!
There is many interesting extension for it, and many very interesting tools that uses it, OpenACS, SqlLite, AOL Server.
Tcl have many deployment facilities, starkits.
Tcl is fun, and thats key.
Some languages are good, others are fun.
Java is good, Java is widely used commercially, many frameworks built with it, a major corporation behind, improved constantly ...
You can't go wrong with Java
But Java is boooooooooooooooooooring
You have to learn a lot before you just can see anything!
I started with Java, read the first few chapters in learning Java in 21 days
And honestly, Java sucks ass!
Java is just not intelectually rewarding at all
So I moved to Python, the interactive interpreter was a blast!
Wow..
But after a lot of time with python, I realized that python was as dull as java better of course, less dull wouldn't disagree.
But still, it was just not intelectually rewarding!

So I had to move on, OCaml, programming for the smarties!
Spent many nights, trying to read the french book, on programming with OCaml!
Many new terminology, many new concepts, I still have no clue or real understanding of many of it's features, but I do believe OCaml is great and fun, and intelectual!

I also spent a lot of time with C, you know regardless of what you think, C is fun, it was fun to understand how to dynamically allocate memory for a mutlidimension array, tryin to visuallize it and rationalized, this was fun!

Then came the time, I just have to see more, investigate ways.
It was time for GUI and event based programming, I first looked at GTK, but that's where the C fun stopped, and Tcl seemed where I should go!

I still have not learned the Tk extension, but as far as I am concerned, it will be fun, and intlectually rewarding!

Plus Tcl is fun, the idea that everything is a string, is super fun to think about it, my intel processor is a machine, that think everything is a binary number, my Tcl program is a machine that think everything is a string!

Could this be another way to look at polymorphism?
Yea, I think so, maybe I am wrong
But I get to think about it, and it's fun!

Lisp should be fun, I learned a lil elisp, and well, being able to imagine how the intepreter is executing/substituting your program every step of way is fun and rewarding!

I wonna have skill, and I want to know it all, but I walking alone here, if my mind is not going to entertain me, well, I just wouldn't last!

It must be usefull and fun, I cannot afford to pick a commercial choice, if I want to last!
Plus, this will in a way go against my principal, my savior the net, the free software, all the free papers, all the forums, all the chat room!
If it wasn't for the free software, I would have never gone after programming sysadmin skills, not that I have them yet, but this is where I chose to go!

So, do I want a future in a big commercial firm! I am not rich by western standard, but thank God I am also not poor!
So I do not know, I don't think I will ever qualify for work in such a place, but I see a future in small teams, building solutions using free software!

I expect to be paid for the solution! not the tools used in building the solution!
I do not expect the user care for the tool as much as the solution!

So, this is how I think!
I want to develop the skills to build the solution!
Without strong moral principals, and tools that are fun and intelctual, I won't last! I will quit!

Sorry for the personal stuff, I don't think I am dumb or bad, I am just slow!
New "Systems", you should meet Bryce. Bryce, this is "Systems".
New BTW, "Systems": Lay off the exclamation marks. Have some ...
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HTH!


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New You sound like the Rincewind of programming
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New For scripting, TCL is poo.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
     Tilting at windmills: classes vs objects - (drewk) - (35)
         Er, no. - (admin) - (14)
             Well ... - (drewk) - (11)
                 They're wrong. - (admin) - (9)
                     I'd say parallel development - (drewk) - (5)
                         I dispute that claim - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Exactly. - (mmoffitt)
                         History of PHP in question - (tablizer) - (2)
                             PHP started as less then a scripting language - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                 Them 'er fightin' words - (tablizer)
                     I think PHP's upgrades are just practical. - (static) - (2)
                         By "class variables" you mean "static" class variables? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                             Er, yes. - (static)
                 What to say if someone says that... - (ben_tilly)
             Nit - (dshellman) - (1)
                 Actually, that's not a nit - (admin)
         a class is a type of object - (daemon) - (2)
             It's tables all the way down. :-) - (ChrisR) - (1)
                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
         Very astute observation - (tuberculosis)
         Re: Tilting at windmills: classes vs objects - (systems) - (15)
             I suspected that programming would eventually converge - (Ashton)
             Do you honestly believe that this is from TCL??? - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                 Amen - (broomberg)
                 Re: Do you honestly believe that this is from TCL??? - (systems) - (11)
                     think you had better be a developer - (daemon) - (3)
                         Funny; I was thinking the opposite ;) -NT - (FuManChu) - (2)
                             Ive met lots of developers that have no clue - (daemon)
                             Neither - (broomberg)
                     Let me get this straight - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         very loud VD (clap clap clap) -NT - (daemon)
                         Then let me elaborate - (systems) - (3)
                             "Systems", you should meet Bryce. Bryce, this is "Systems". -NT - (CRConrad)
                             BTW, "Systems": Lay off the exclamation marks. Have some ... - (CRConrad)
                             You sound like the Rincewind of programming -NT - (ben_tilly)
                     For scripting, TCL is poo. -NT - (pwhysall)

This must be true. They made a bumper sticker.
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