Have you read the whole thing?

Post #18,755 by Steven A S 11/19/01 10:38:29 AM Reply	Have you read the whole thing? The public singing thing is a problem, but I don't see a problem with publically flogging a heroin pusher, and while harsh by our standards, amputating the hand of a third time offender/thief seems to be an effective deterrant. From the sounds of it, it's so much of a deterrant that it hasn't had to be done for quite a while. I'm not saying they should be implemented here (well maybe the flogging heroin pushers :) ), just that they're not that unusual for that area in general. And like I said, that public singing thing should be reconsidered ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,765 by Brandioch 11/19/01 11:20:52 AM Reply	Need information on the range. Okay, flogging a pusher is one thing. But what is the least crime that is flogged? Theft can be very wide ranging. From breaking into someone's house, to pick-pockets to petty shop lifting.
Post #18,771 by Steven A S 11/19/01 11:40:46 AM Reply	Couldn't say Obviously I'm not the one to judge whether their justice system is fair or not. But we can't expect them to just turn around and adopt our criminal justice system either. Change has to be gradual, and will have to be no matter who takes over leadership of the country. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,852 by screamer 11/19/01 5:25:05 PM Reply	Personal Observation when I was on TDY in Turkey. A child (probably no more than 10) was grabbed in the public square and hung upside down in a device that was reminiscient of a stockade. Two older men then proceeded to beat his feet with switches until they bled (actually, long after they were bleeding). His feet swelled up to about twice normal size and were the deepest purple color that I can remember seeing. This made a deep and lasting (it has been over 18 years ago) on me. I was escorted by an MP back to the barracks as I started to try and open the device and free the boy. They told me that we were absolutely not to interfere with local customs. It was none of our concern. I'm sorry, but there is nothing that I can think of this boy did (he stole a fish at market, by the way) that justified this. And you know what... to this day I feel guilty that I didn't do more to try and help. The reason I'm chiming in is your statement, "I'm not one to judge their justice system..." Well, if you aren't going to take the "risk", I will. Yes, change will have to be gradual, but it must occur. It is implicit that any government that we sanction after we defeat them not suck. If it does, we will be inviting more trouble. There is nothing in the Koran that would forbid a peaceful and just society being formed in the new Afghanistan. As the conqueror, we are entitled to dictate human rights be observed in their country from now on. We can either do this or just pick up and go home and hope... We've done it before. I guess I'd like for you to define gradual. It would help my comfort level. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,893 by Steven A S 11/19/01 10:07:28 PM Reply	Clarification When I said "I'm not [the] one to judge their justice system", I meant because I didn't have enough information to judge it. I don't know at what point they start the floggings, etc that was being asked. It's easy to draw opinions about the conditions based on a simple article, but it takes a lot more facts to make hard fast decisions that affect millions. The sight you saw in Turkey was awful, but if it were that easy to change, it already would have been. But keep making the noise, if for no other reason than to ensure that they don't lose track of the goal. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,927 by jbrabeck 11/20/01 7:50:50 AM Reply	Sinop?
Post #18,971 by screamer 11/20/01 1:26:14 PM Reply	Yep... Was geographically significant... with it's proximity to Odessa... Was an EWSIGINT Russian 98G in a past life. A lot of us got to go to Sinop and Wobeck and Berlin for TDY. Were you there? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,988 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:24:36 PM Reply	Cool. I did Berlin before the wall came down. We needed all kinds of special clearances. Not to mention the trip in the train with the windows covered.
Post #19,015 by screamer 11/20/01 5:13:57 PM Reply	Duty trains rocked... I was hassled one time at Magdeburg (I believe) and it kind of ruined Berlin for me. The zoo was cool, as well as Kudam (think it was actually Kurfursterdam?) Strasse. I did like Checkpoint Charlie. Does anyone know if there is still a museum there? What's interesting for me now is if I will ever be able to explain the tension that existed there before the wall came down to my kids... Were you in the service? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,019 by Brandioch 11/20/01 5:48:25 PM Reply	Yep. 7 years in the army.
Post #19,116 by screamer 11/21/01 11:35:38 AM Reply	Kewl... I may have made it 7 years were it not for my distaste for wearing green ;-) I was a four and out, wouldn't do it any other way... Miss the people, hated the organization. I have a nephew that asked me if he she join. I didn't know what to tell him. It helped me out - discipline, learning to work in teams, college tuition - but I had trouble given him a solid endorsement... I have to admit, that when September 11 first happened, I wanted to join back... I'm too old now, but I felt then and still feel now that what is going on in Afghanistan is important now and has very long range implications for the stability of "anti-war" in the 21'st century. As a race, I have always hoped that we could get beyond religion and skin color and nationalities to the core of our human existence. It's amazing the similiarity between all members of the human experience. It's also amazing how we tend to exagerate the differences... Babbling now, but thank you for your service to the USA. As corny as that phrase sounds, I mean it sincerely and wish I heard it more myself... Just a few thoughts, Dan "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,136 by Brandioch 11/21/01 1:13:51 PM Reply	I'd never recommend it. The total stupidity wasn't worth it. That's why I did 7 years. I thought it would get better as I moved up. I made E-6 in four years. It never got better. I just got to see the stupidity start and watch it roll.
Post #19,153 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 2:24:09 PM Reply	But I would... To those who haven't a clue about what they want to do with their life. Four and out (if they have gotten a clue). Give them time to mature, get some job training, experience a different way of life, maybe different culture and a chance to pick up some college credits and a chunk of change to pay for college. But not for those who have their life planned. I went cuz I had to go. Draft number came up, student deferment was revoked (didn't want to be a student...), so it was either enlist for 3 with an option of duty and training OR be drafted for 2 and go to 'Nam. Took the 3. Ended up in Germany. Found computers. Ended up in charge of computer operations for the Finance Center in Europe. But when the Army decided that after 10 years, a Finance NCO (E6) should be in charge of the finance records and not the computers, I decided my time was up, got out and finished in the Reserves as a 1SG/MSG. It's not the life for everyone, but I'd recommend it. And I have suggested to my oldest daughter that she consider it. She has no idea of what she wants to do. So instead of wasting time in college now, do some military time, grow up and then go to college and enjoy life. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,062 by CRConrad 11/20/01 10:07:06 PM Reply	Strolled around Magdeburg at age 12 or 13; no hassles then.. ...but later on, when I was older, there were. IIRC. It's "Kurfürstendamm", without any 'Strasse', BTW. From "Kur-fürst", "Prince Elector" -- 'Fürst' (cf 'first') is 'Prince', and 'kur-' is from "zu küren", "to select" or "to declare"; it refers to one of the nine(?) minor-monarchs who got to vote on "electing" the next Emperor. Phuck knows where '-damm' comes from. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #19,110 by screamer 11/21/01 11:22:03 AM Reply	Thank you for the info... Herr, er, ummm... Sir tour guide... Of course I was not exactly welcome given the situation that I was in. My Grandfather on my mother's side was from Potsdam and my grandfather and grandmother on my father's side were from Dresden. I couldn't get to Potsdam or Dresden in the old configuration but have been planning a trip back. It's been put on hold for a few more years as a result of my talliwacker (wife is 5 months pregnant with our second child). I really miss Deutschland and, although I'm American born and raised, I still feel a strong kinship with the Fatherland as a result of my heritage. In any event, I would like to get back to Berlin to give it another try. It is a unique city and one of the world's hidden treasures. I spent most of my 3 years of duty in Frankenland and Bavaria, which are some of the world's better known treasures. I still have a few friends that I keep in touch with and they keep me abreast of what's up in Wurzurg and Frankfurt. I'm waxing nostalgic now with nothing to say, so I appreciate your indulgence to this point. Do you get back home much? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,125 by CRConrad 11/21/01 12:12:13 PM Reply	You're welcome. Heck no, I get back all too rarely. Last time I went was, uhm... 1992, -93 or -94? Can't remember -- anyway, it was for my maternal grandfather's birthday, his eightieth it must have been. He died a few weeks ago -- he'd been ailing for years, my Mom was down there helping look after him all summer -- but for several individually petty but altogether nonetheless valid reasons, I couldn't go to the funeral. :-( This is all down in Joe B's erstwhile neck of the woods, BTW: My home town, Tübingen, is on the Neckar just like Heidelberg. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #19,170 by screamer 11/21/01 4:17:38 PM Reply	My condolences... I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather. I'm also sorry that you don't get to go back to your hometown much. I don't either. I think I mentioned to you a few years ago that Heidleberg is a beautiful place. I also would like to go back to Rothenberg (burg?) am der Tauber? as well. I loved the architecture and general aesthetics of Bamburg as well... Hated rauchbier however... (what kind of sick mind came up with that?) But I digress... This all, of course, has nothing to do with the War on Terror... so I'm gonna stop for now. Tomorrow is the big Thanksgiving holiday for us Merrykins (Ashton?) so I've gotta hit the road soon and won't be able to check back to forums until next Monday. Eat a turkey sandwich in solidarity with your American brothers... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,089 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 8:01:18 AM Reply	I was there Back in mid 70's. 73C. Had to inspect the finance office, count the cash and all that. Only there for a week. Not allowed to leave the post. Flew in on the mail plane from Instanbul 'cause flight agent has used wrong season schedule. Stationed in Heidelberg. Stayed in Germany for 10 (10/73-01/83) years, until Army decided that I needed a new duty location... Got out and then finished my 20 in the Reserves. Many fond memories... [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,121 by screamer 11/21/01 11:45:29 AM Reply	Fond memories here too... and an amazing coincidence in the timing of this thread and my personal life. A bunch of old DLI'ers (Defense Language Institute, Monterey, CA) having been looking me up and sending me email. They are trying to plan a reunion. We're all over the country now... I was only there (Germany) for about 3 years and stationed in Wurzburg with the 103'rd MI BN (assigned to 3rd Infantry Division). We were all over the map in those days... It's hard to explain the cold war now, but it sure seemed important at the time. Even then, though, I thought that the Russians were really our allies (as we have always fought WITH them) and couldn't understand why our paranoia (both of our countries) was so intense. Thankfully, this has turned out to be a true observation. Thank you for your service to our country. I know what that means. The personal hardship, the dedication, the insanity ;-) . Just a few thoughts, Dan "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,148 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 2:10:11 PM Reply	When were you in Wurzburg? I landed there on Oct 20, 1972. Went to H'berg in '74. Worked in G4. AJ then SGT. Got stuck with all the details that required an NCO (I was the most junior) or an EM (I was most experienced) Played in ReForGer. On call the night a F4, iirc, failed to pull up on a simulated strafing run of an APC Armored Personnel Carrier (with troops). Supply officer was first on scene, and he only had the G4 freq. I had to wake up everyone at 0500 to say we had an incident... Orange forces kicked ass...! (Course it was reported that the Blue forces won. For the uninformed... The blue forces were the reenforcement troops flying over from the US. The orange were some of the forces already in Germany who had to play "bad guys".) Lived in Leighton barracks. On CP the night there was a "race" riot on post. Was to have been cruising the town, looking for drunks (CP=Courtesy Patrol - pick up the drunks and return them to the barracks before the MPs were called). Jeep broke down so ended up on walking patrol of the Kasern (post). My partner and I were actually caught right in the middle when the fight/riot broke out... We spent two days being interrogated by MP, JAG, and IG. 7 day war... Waiting on flight line for load and go order... Being issued live ammo while on guard duty... Middle of the night alerts... Being young, no cares and no worries... :) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,168 by screamer 11/21/01 4:07:33 PM Reply	From '81 to '84.... Specialist then SGT then PFC :-) ... Oh well... I lived in Leighton as well. We had the building across from the bowling alley/library/gym/snack bar until the new ones were built in '83/'84... I miss Wurzburg. I never had anything quite so exciting as a race riot, but my friends and I sure liked to go to a little gasthaus nearby (Lugi's, I believe) and Pizeria Volcano and get loaded. There would be mini "riots" on the way back between us drunks... Well, it's a small world after all... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,769 by bluke 11/19/01 11:38:20 AM 11/19/01 11:43:32 AM Reply	Double standard You said " I'm not saying they should be implemented here ", why not, it works? The answer is that you think it is too barbaric to cut off Americans hands, but Afghani hands, who cares. This is the kind of attitude that gets the US hated around the world. As an Indian reporter asked President Bush, when the US is attacked she can send troops halfway around the world but when India is attacked the US calls for restraint. Whya re US lives worth more then Indian lives (paraphrased). The message that the US sends is that freedom, democracy, etc, is good for us, but the rest of the world, who cares, as long as you ship the oil, produce things cheaply, the US doesn't care. The US will prop up corrupt regimes all over the globe as long as they are "our" dictators. As for women singing in public you can't have it both ways. You want to accept the practice of cutting off hands for theft because "they're not that unusual for that area in general", if that is the case then how can you advocate allowing women to sing in public, that is not that unusual in that area also (to ban women from singing in public). After all, Saudia Arabia doesn't even allow women to drive cars. Edited by bluke Nov. 19, 2001, 11:43:32 AM EST Expand All History
Post #18,773 by Brandioch 11/19/01 11:45:41 AM Reply	I believe the phrase is "well DUH!" This is a surprise to you?
Post #18,783 by bluke 11/19/01 11:58:48 AM Reply	Not a surprise at all I just want to make sure taht everyone else here also understands this.
Post #18,787 by Brandioch 11/19/01 12:08:25 PM Reply	Some do. Some are in denial. We're still bigger than you are. And might always makes right. Allow me to clarify this a bit for you. There is a phrase that many US parents use when dealing with their children. "Do as I say, not as I do."
Post #18,782 by Steven A S 11/19/01 11:56:01 AM Reply	I may not have stated myself correctly I would love for all countries to have the fairest laws possible (even ours don't necessarily meet that criteria), but I realize that these things don't change overnight. Some amount of continuous adjustment will always be needed, but if we were to try to change them wholescale to match ours, that more than anything would draw their hatred. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,895 by Ashton 11/19/01 11:14:09 PM Reply	Perhaps you are all forgetting Japan and the end of W-II ? We restructured everything including such er social mores about women n' such as the hand-wringing is about, here. Please review the role of one Gen. Douglas Mac Arthur as, the New God - replacing Hirohito. Many.. most? came to 'love' him, too - just as a few years later: they revered and still revere W. Ernest Demming: for showing them the way to a consumer's heart. (Murican bizness took much longer even to simulate this attitude, we notice. Remember the US cars of the '80s ??) Anyone who believes that 'the Good' cannot drive out the Badness.. sometimes: is the Paragon of Pessimism. And perhaps a bit wimpish? Ashton
Post #18,897 by Another Scott 11/19/01 11:27:24 PM Reply	Nit: W. Edwards Deming. [link\|http://www.deming.org/\|[link\|http://www.deming.org/\|http://www.deming.org/]] My step mom went to one of his seminars a few years ago when he was in his 90s. I think he died a few years ago. (He'd be 101 now.) Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,901 by Ashton 11/19/01 11:41:33 PM Reply	Thanks - bookmarked. Neat guy all around.
Post #18,948 by inthane-chan 11/20/01 11:38:28 AM Reply	Um, hate to be the one to break it to you, Ashton... ...but Japan has most definitely NOT reformed it's attitude towards women, at least not where it counts. Yeah, there's a lot of "surface speak" about respecting women, and hey, a few have gotten quite far in the society... But look under the surface, and you'll find that things haven't changed much. Witness the rise of "compensated dating" - middle-aged business men paying school girls to do all kinds of weird crap - as well as the more traditional kinds of sexism. I've known quite a few Japanese women, a fair number of whom's parents had arranged marriages set up for them that they weren't at all interested in, yet were still going ahead with because "it is what a woman does." Marital infidelity is sky-high over there - it's practically expected of the husband to have an affair or two on a regular basis. Women are still beaten by their husbands, rapes pretty much go unreported, and the "glass ceiling" is still firmly in place. Although, one has to admit, that isn't all that different from the United States. :) "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #18,983 by Ashton 11/20/01 2:11:35 PM Reply	Sorry if I gave the impression that Anyone via most any sort of 'suggestive' process: could reverse ethnic conditioning - meant only: just insofar ~as most.. pay lip-service to the US Constitution (without actually meaning it - when Their ox is gored, or that Green person moves in next door, or that Entrepreneur buys the block ...) Simply: women got to vote and stuff, and the overt versions of what you decribe: were forced to inhabit that shadowy space in all cultures -- between what you now sorta know you oughtn't(?) to do: but Do with the usual wink-wink- with The Boys, as in - "This is Ms. Anderson, the PhD in molecular biology up for the ACS Medal, a brown belt in karate and member of the BOD - also on the Mayor's board for redrawing of the city Constitution..." (Him) "Wow, check the ass on That chick.." No, we aren't the only immature group in the species - we just know our hometown stuff better than the others. And I'm aware of some of the variants of sexual immaturity rampant in J. males; however: some of them do at least appear to comprehend the difference between 'erotica' and porno, whereas only US females comprehend That difference. Mostly. It's a tough call there. The French, Italians could give lessons to both (unless Americanized, Japanized at an early age). My 8\ufffd lire
Post #18,807 by Simon_Jester 11/19/01 1:23:37 PM Reply	I must disagree with you. You said " I'm not saying they should be implemented here ", why not, it works? The answer is that you think it is too barbaric to cut off Americans hands, but Afghani hands, who cares. This is the kind of attitude that gets the US hated around the world. Actually, I believe the opposite. It's when Americas (the US) comes to a foreign government and says "You must do THIS" that gets the US hated around the world. Do you believe that the US should go to Israel and tell them that they CAN'T go around killing Palestines? That Israel MUST give up the West Bank? And you're going to LOVE us for this?
Post #18,919 by bluke 11/20/01 3:42:08 AM Reply	The problem is not... that the US goes around telling other governments what to do, the problem is that the US supports corrupt dictatorships and lets them do what they want. The US doesn't tell Saudia Arabia or Egypt what to do, it just protects them so that they can do whatever they want, including oppressing their own citizens. In Afghanistan the US has a special responsibility because the US brought down the Taliban.
Post #18,831 by marlowe 11/19/01 3:20:35 PM Reply	Gee, we just can't win. It's Muslims cutting off Muslim hands, and we're naughty if we don't prevent them, say some. But there are others saying we're naughty if we interfere in their affairs. You can't please everyone. There's no double standard with me on this. I say if they're not hurting anyone but themselves and each other, they can do as they see fit, and suffer the direct consequences of their actions with no outside interference. But if they target our civilian citizens, or those of any democratic nation, their affairs become our affairs. We will look out first for our interests, and then, incidentally, we may try to drag them out of the cesspool of their dysfunctional ways, whether they want to come or not. And if they don't like it, they shouldn't target our civilian citizens. It's either leave them to the ravages of social Darwinism, or treat them first like rabid animals, and later like overgrown children. And the choice is theirs. And I would wish the same on the West, if it should ever be necessary. Come to think of it, it was necessary, in part, when we dealt with the Nazis. And I suppose one could stretch the definition of "the West" to include Serbia. And going back aways, there was that nasty war to stop the spread of slavery in the United States back in the 19th century. (I weep for the children of these savages, who, aside from a bit of free will, are nearly doomed to grow up to be savages themselves, and will suffer the consequences of savagery at any rate. But we can't solve all the problems of the world. Social Darwinism is an abdication. But sometimes it's an necessary one.) [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #18,844 by Brandioch 11/19/01 4:26:24 PM Reply	Did someone miss our CIA operatives? We have a HISTORY of interfering in other countries. Primarily destabilizing regimes we don't approve of or funding groups to be our proxies. Don't you KNOW that WE TRAINED OSAMA? I think bluke is right with his "double standard".
Post #18,846 by Another Scott 11/19/01 4:33:38 PM Reply	Evidence, please. Don't you KNOW that WE TRAINED OSAMA? Evidence, please. "The Boondocks" doesn't count. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,848 by inthane-chan 11/19/01 4:47:50 PM Reply	IIRC... ...and this is just what I've read here: We trained the Muhajadeen. (sp?) Osama had his own group, which wasn't doing so well, and wasn't really associated with the Muhajadeen. The Soviets got tired of losing soldiers and pulled out of Afghanistan. (similar to what happened in the U.S. Independance war with England - it wasn't that they were losing battles, it's just that the other side wouldn't STAY down after getting hit.) The Muhajadeen basically went ape and pillaged the countryside. The Taliban, with some backing from Al Quaeda and OBL kick the Muhajadeen out of power. And then 9/11/2001 happens... "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #18,849 by Simon_Jester 11/19/01 5:07:35 PM Reply	Evidence of a black op? Note: both the US and bin Ladin claim that the US never trained bin Ladin. That said, the argument goes something like this: The US was attempting to train the afgans for their fight against the Russians. The afgans were not the most disciplined individuals in the world and training them proved difficult. The US turned to some Arab Muslims that came to the area to help the afgans (it was hoped they would be easier to train). However, evidence is all classified. There is no proof (that I know of) anywhere.
Post #18,896 by Another Scott 11/19/01 11:21:35 PM Reply	Evidence and logic. Hi, I'm not attacking your post - it's just a convenient place to make this point. :-) You're right that it's not unexpected that there isn't much evidence whether bin Laden was a CIA operative or not. But let's consider some logic. What would make more sense for a multi-millionaire with a family in the construction business to do to further his chosen cause? To personally spend weeks or more in the dirt on his belly learning about war-fighting techniques, or use his money and construction expertise to recruit others and build infrastructure? Recall that he has a large entourage around him. He has to keep his where-abouts secret. Does it make sense for such a valuable person (due to his money and business contacts, etc.) to be trained by the CIA to fight the Russians in Afghanistan? Would the Taliban rather have him propping up their regime with money or have him running around in bands of young men with Kalashnikovs? It doesn't make sense that the CIA would have trained bin Laden. These allegations about bin Laden and the CIA were common months and years before 9/11. They go back to the embassy bombings or earlier. There's a diversity of opinion in the House and Senate about the CIA. Recall the battles over Iran-Contra. If there was credible evidence (or even credible allegations) that bin Laden was a creature of the CIA, don't you think that someone in the Congress would have had hearings about it? I don't recall any such hearings. And surely if there were such hearings, then critics of the CIA would use such hearings as evidence. Why hasn't a gadfly reporter/journalist like Christopher Hitchens or Seymour Hersch or even web sites like [link\|http://www.spiescafe.com/spiescafe.htm\|Spies Cafe] done an investigation if they thought there was anything behind it? It doesn't make sense. But I guess that doesn't make it impossible.... Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,905 by dmarker2 11/20/01 12:24:02 AM Reply	Re: Evidence and logic - smoking gun evidence !!! Some months back I quoted the Amazon link to a book written by a British SAS operative who worked in Afghanistan training mujadhedeen. He claimed that the CIA later came in and began training some Afghans & Arabs, in urban terror tactics. I believe he goes into quite a bit of detail. But I bet no one will bother to read his book (grin). I half suspect that some of us just don't want to delve that deep cos we won't like what we find (V B Grin). Cheers Doug PS I for one believe that CIA went into a deep relationship with Mr Osama bin of Laden, he is very very well known to them - they had an arrangement with him that he would train Mujahedeen for use in Bosnia & CIA arranged for special ops forces to work with these groups by providing coordinating radio comms operators & coordinating their attacks against Serbs - but I supose you will want the link to the CIA file as proof (Another Grin). (Mr Boxley may be able to re-quote the title the book by the SAS guy, for me as I can't recall it just at the moment)
Post #18,985 by Ashton 11/20/01 2:18:31 PM Reply	'Frank & Ernest' (US comic strip) reprise. Again! Frank n'E. are scruffy lookin street people, old enough to be wise - but not enile. One of 'em is in a 'greasy spoon' Cafe (er: the name says it all). Usual pot-bellied cook in dirty T-shirt. He sees a sign, over the big soup pot, DO NOT STIR THE SOUP Asks, "er why not?" "Because you would not like what you would see, Sir.."
Post #18,930 by Simon_Jester 11/20/01 9:20:30 AM Reply	Heh..and the definition of "is" is... I'm not attacking your post - it's just a convenient place to make this point. no problem...and same back at ya. ;-) What would make more sense for a multi-millionaire with a family in the construction business to do to further his chosen cause? To personally spend weeks or more in the dirt on his belly learning about war-fighting techniques, or use his money and construction expertise to recruit others and build infrastructure? Recall that he has a large entourage around him. He has to keep his where-abouts secret. Does it make sense for such a valuable person (due to his money and business contacts, etc.) to be trained by the CIA to fight the Russians in Afghanistan? Would the Taliban rather have him propping up their regime with money or have him running around in bands of young men with Kalashnikovs? It doesn't make sense that the CIA would have trained bin Laden. Okay, let's try another scenerio... The CIA is attempting to help the Afghanistans fight the Communists. Congress may be balking at the amounts, and the CIA is getting the run around (told to do something, short on cash). Along comes an important Saudia who offers to spend $10 million (or more) to buy needed equipment. Saudia Arabia is an ally of ours (hell, we sell them some of our best equipment) and this is a respected individual of that country. Would the CIA arrange the sale? Would training to use the equipment be included in the sale? Of course, it may all depend on what the definition of "training" is. :-)
Post #18,850 by Brandioch 11/19/01 5:13:06 PM Reply	Your government at work. [link\|http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html\|http://globalresear...CHO109C.html]
Post #18,857 by Another Scott 11/19/01 6:09:46 PM Reply	I don't find the evidence to be very good. Thanks for the link. That paper shows up about a zillion times doing a Google search. I'm suspicious of an article on covert operations written by an economist... But let's read the text: Prime suspect in the New York and Washington terrorists attacks, branded by the FBI as an "international terrorist" for his role in the African US embassy bombings, Saudi born Osama bin Laden was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders". 1 I can't find the original reference 1 via Google. The quote from reference 1 doesn't say that the CIA recruited bin Laden. It doesn't say that the CIA trained bin Laden. The partial quote (which might be out of context - I'm generally suspicious of partial quotes especially when the author using the quote pretty clearly has an agenda), that bin Laden was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war. I'm sure bin Laden was "recruited" - he didn't just come to find out about the war in Afghanistan by divine vision. But that doesn't mean that the CIA - which was supporting mujahedeen fighters in Afghanistan - recruited him. That doesn't mean the CIA trained him or that he was somehow caused to exist by direct or indirect actions of the CIA. Presumably if the Davies article said that it would have appeared in that sentence. And presumably if there was evidence of the CIA training or recruiting bin Laden it wouldn't be squirreled away so that only an economist could find it. In the words of CIA's Milton Beardman "We didn't train Arabs". Yet according to Abdel Monam Saidali, of the Al-aram Center for Strategic Studies in Cairo, bin Laden and the "Afghan Arabs" had been imparted "with very sophisticated types of training that was allowed to them by the CIA" 6 which is another partial quote which refers to an NPR Weekend Edition Sunday [link\|http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=8%2F16%2F1998&PrgID=10\|segment]. I haven't heard the interview (and don't have a sound card on this machine). The CIA agent's name is Milton Bearden. (What other errors are in the article?) He ran the Afghan operation. Presumably he is an authoritative source. One just has to decide whether to believe him or not. A Frontline interview with him is [link\|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/interviews/bearden.html\|here]. He addresses the claims that the CIA had a hand in bin Ladens rise. I don't find the evidence presented to be of very high quality. Nor do I believe his [link\|http://www.diaspora-net.org/food4thought/chossudovsky.htm\|statements about the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia] - charging deliberate targeting of schools and the like. Amply documented, the bombings of Yugoslavia are not strictly aimed at military and strategic targets as claimed by NATO. They are largely intent on destroying the country's civilian infrastructure as well as its institutions. According to Yugoslav sources, NATO has engaged around 600 aeroplanes of which more than 400 are combat planes. They have flown almost 3,000 attack sorties, "with 200 in one night alone against 150 designated targets". They have dropped thousands of tons of explosives and have launched some 450 cruise missiles. The intensity of the bombing using the most advanced military technology is unprecedented in modern history. It far surpasses the bombing raids of World War II or the Vietnam War. The bombings have not only been directed against industrial plants, airports, electricity and telecommunications facilities, railways, bridges and fuel depots, they have also targeted schools, health clinics, day care centres, government buildings, churches, museums, monasteries and historical landmarks. I believe Bearden when he said (link above) that the CIA had nothing to do with bin Laden - until I see evidence of reasonable quality indicating otherwise. Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,861 by bepatient 11/19/01 6:20:09 PM Reply	Thank you thank you thank you... ...because I saw the Bearden interview....and there was something he said that I wanted to quote... I can imagine someone out there watching saying. "This is the CIA talking." You're not going to admit that you created the most dangerous public enemy in the world. You bet I would. If I could look you in the eye and say, "Trust me, Osama bin Laden was my guy. If it wasn't for the CIA he wouldn't be anything then, he wouldn't be anything today," if I could say that with a straight face, I think that would speed up the process of removing Mr. bin Laden as a source of great, great concern for the United States. I can't say that because it's simply not true. You can find nobody who is familiar with the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan in those years that would say bin Laden played any role other than the fund-raiser. ... That is what I have seen over and over again. Never anything other than we shared the same objective of removing the Soviets. The CIA by supplying vast amounts of weaponry and training in its use (mostly Stingers) and some operatives to assist in training the fighters. Bin Laden was a money man in Afghanistan. So...we probably shared the same distribution network...that being Pakistani intelligence. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,863 by Another Scott 11/19/01 6:22:48 PM Reply	You're quite welcome. :-)
Post #18,864 by Brandioch 11/19/01 6:25:29 PM Reply	More [link\|http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:_kA7b4Jp2qg:www.urbanspectrum.net/features/cost.of.bin.laden.html+%22bin+laden%22+training+cia+covert\|http://www.google.c...g+cia+covert]&hl=en " A parade of CIA officials, Pentagon advisors and congresspersons secretly trooped to Afghanistan to encourage the Islamic rebels. Driven by the thrill of battle, religious fanaticism, and U.S. military largesse, hundreds of would-be recruits flocked to Afghanistan from the Arab Gulf states. Osama bin Laden was one of them. He and hundreds of other militants received instruction in CIA-run camps in communications and weapons training, the use of satellite technology to track enemy air movements, and methods to coordinate small guerrilla networks."
Post #18,866 by Another Scott 11/19/01 6:28:19 PM Reply	He says it, but presents no evidence for it....
Post #18,869 by Brandioch 11/19/01 7:04:44 PM Reply	At this point, you're going to concede the other statements? Did someone miss our CIA operatives? - (Brandioch) - 2001-11-19 21:26:24 Evidence, please. - (Another Scott) - 2001-11-19 21:33:38 IIRC... - (inthane-chan) - 2001-11-19 21:47:50 Evidence of a black op? - (Simon_Jester) - 2001-11-19 22:07:35 Your government at work. - (Brandioch) - 2001-11-19 22:13:06 I don't find the evidence to be very good. - (Another Scott) - 2001-11-19 23:09:46 Thank you thank you thank you... - (bepatient) - 2001-11-19 23:20:09 You're quite welcome. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - 2001-11-19 23:22:48 More - (Brandioch) - 2001-11-19 23:25:29 He says it, but presents no evidence for it.... -NT - (Another Scott) - 2001-11-19 Note, my original position was that the CIA had engaged in activities in foreign countries to destabilize those governments AND that they funded opposition in those countries. Now, we've gone through 5 replies. You haven't challenged those other statements of mine. So, you admit that the CIA did do that. Which effectively counters marlowe's position that we should be left alone by the terrorists. We seem to have started it.
Post #18,875 by Another Scott 11/19/01 7:32:04 PM Reply	Keep me out of it. :-) Don't you KNOW that WE TRAINED OSAMA? Evidence, please. "The Boondocks" doesn't count. :-) I was asking for evidence that we trained Osama. I haven't seen any reasonable evidence that we have. I don't have time to present research, cites, evidence of other issues. I'm not defending nor attacking the CIA's actions in other countries, etc. I've simply asked for evidence that bin Laden is a US or CIA creature. My feeling is, based on what I've seen and read, that the Frontline show [link\|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/\|Hunting bin Laden] is the best I've seen in presenting real evidence - evidence that he wasn't trained, etc., by the CIA. But I'm always interested in other sources of reasonable credibility. I'm not getting into your argument with marlowe. Please don't use my inquiry as evidence. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,898 by Ashton 11/19/01 11:27:59 PM Reply	Proof? what I see inferred from this mass of circumstantial information, is: Unless and until Someone from the CIA comes forward and says: "Yes! I remember young Osama in my class.. A quick study." you and others are going to consider the idea moot or 'propaganda' of some sort. Fine. but {sheesh} Ashton
Post #18,899 by Another Scott 11/19/01 11:34:29 PM Reply	Does it make sense that the CIA would have trained him? I don't think so. More [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=18896\|here] in my reply to Simon (above). I'm not asking for proof, just some evidence that makes sense. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,902 by Ashton 11/19/01 11:48:33 PM Reply	My take, then. OK. Perhaps he never sat in a class led by an actual CIA operative. What is apparent is: those who did, made notes and disseminated them and taught others. Ad infinitum. It is not likely, vanishing unlikely in my view: that Osama failed to benefit 2nd, 3rd or other-hand from those activities. Does 1st-hand really matter? Any more than - the actual trigger-puller who killed Allende - might not have been a CIA agent himself? A.
Post #18,984 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:14:49 PM Reply	sigh No, the CIA does not run classrooms as you are familiar with. "Train the trainer". Equipment is arranged for. People who know how to use that equipment are arranged for. The equipment and people who know how to use it are arranged to be in the same location as the people who will use it but lack the knowledge of how to use it. This is arranged by CIA operatives. No, the CIA operative does NOT sit down and show them how to field stip an AK-47. That is not the job of the operative. Money, equipment, personnel. Only the highest level locals will get to meet the CIA operative to discuss operations. And these discussions will be about strategies and resource allocations. No wonder you people have such a fucked up view of what's going on in the world. News flash! James Bond is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER.
Post #18,987 by Another Scott 11/20/01 2:21:17 PM Reply	Nice strawman there, Brandy. :-) My question to you was to ask for evidence that "Don't you KNOW that WE TRAINED OSAMA?". You posted a link I didn't find persuasive. In short, we disagree about the evidence. Simple as that. It's not a "you people" thing, in my view. Cheers, Scott.
Post #18,992 by Silverlock 11/20/01 2:36:39 PM Reply	How literally do you want to take it? Did William Casey give lectures to terrorists? Nope. Did the CIA fund training that eventually aided OBL? Yep. Depends, as always, on how you define the terms. A few relevant links---- He received security training from the CIA itself, according to Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian. [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm\|[link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm\|http://news.bbc.co....0/155236.stm]] \tWhy did bin Laden declare a fatwah, or religious decree, against the United States? \tU.S. intelligence officials believe bin Laden began to turn against the United States in the mid-1980s a time when he still took aid and training from the CIA, which was then helping bin Laden and other Islamic groups fight the Soviet Army in Afghanistan. The CIA funneled its aid through the Pakistani secret service, the ISI, to various cells in Afghanistan, one of them known as the MAK. [snip] Sources: Congressional Research Service, \ufffdFrontline\ufffd [link\|http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp\|[link\|http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp\|http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp]] In the words of CIA's Milton Beardman: "We didn't train Arabs." Yet according to Abdel Monam Saidali, of the Al-aram Center for Strategic Studies in Cairo, bin Laden and the "Afghan Arabs" had been imparted "with very sophisticated types of training that was allowed to them by the CIA."6 CIA's Beardman confirmed, in this regard, that Osama bin Laden was not aware of the role he was playing on behalf of Washington. In the words of bin Laden (quoted by Beardman): "neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American help." [link\|http://www.antiwar.com/rep/chuss10.html\|[link\|http://www.antiwar.com/rep/chuss10.html\|http://www.antiwar....chuss10.html]] The 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan galvanized bin Laden. He supported the Afghan resistance, which became a jihad, or holy war. Ironically, the U.S. became a major supporter of the Afghan resistance, or mujahideen, working with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to set up Islamic schools in Pakistan for Afghan refugees. These schools later evolved into virtual training centers for Islamic radicals. Some analysts have said that bin Laden even received CIA training. [link\|http://www.teachervision.com/lesson-plans/lesson-6831.html\|[link\|http://www.teachervision.com/lesson-plans/lesson-6831.html\|http://www.teacherv...on-6831.html]] And finally, an excellent biography [link\|http://www.public-i.org/excerpts_01_091301.htm\|[link\|http://www.public-i.org/excerpts_01_091301.htm\|http://www.public-i...1_091301.htm]] ________________________ How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #19,007 by Another Scott 11/20/01 3:49:00 PM Reply	Thanks. Some of this already discussed. The Bearden (not Beardman) link (your antiwar.com cite) was discussed [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=18857\|above]. I didn't find it persuasive as it was a partial quote from a source I couldn't read myself (in context). I've seen many repeats of the statement "He received security training from the CIA itself, according to Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian," but not the original interview or story even with extensive Googling. I'd like to see Teimourian's evidence. I'm not saying he's wrong - I'm saying I'd like to see some evidence. I can't find the Congressional Research Service report which is claimed to support the allegation that the CIA provided "aid and training" to him. The teachervision link just reports what others have said. The public-i.org link is interesting for its detail. But he doesn't provide citations to indicate where he's getting his information, so I don't know how much to trust his take on things. (Again, I'm not saying he's wrong.) But it certainly provides a lot of detail which could be checked. An [link\|http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/ba2000-08-09.htm\|interview with Ahmed Rashid] is in the Atlantic Monthly. An alternative view on bin Laden, CIA support, etc. is provided by links like these: [link\|http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm\|Federation of American Scientists Intelligence Resource Program] [link\|http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96may/blowback.htm\|Blowback] story in Atlantic Monthly. Notice it doesn't mention bin Laden, but contains many of the details that others associate with CIA support of bin Laden. [link\|http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/09/kaplan2.htm\|This] story in the Atlantic Monthly neatly sums up my understanding of the US involvement: These incomplete and somewhat self-serving accounts [of the Taliban's rise] encapsulated much complicated history. By early 1994 Afghanistan was in disarray. The mujahideen who warred against the Soviets had been a motley collection of seven Pakistan-based resistance groups, divided by region, clan, politics, and religious ideology. Worse, the resistance commanders inside Afghanistan had only the loosest of links to the seven groups. For them, party affiliation was merely a matter of access to weaponry -- the groups were awash in guns and money, provided by the CIA through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence. Thus when the Soviet-backed Afghan regime collapsed in Kabul, the capital, in 1992, Afghanistan became a writhing nest of petty warlords who fought and negotiated with one another for small chunks of territory. Girls and young boys were raped and traded between commanders. The situation was especially bad in Kandahar. The road leading to it from Quetta was shared by at least twenty factions, each of which put a chain across the road and demanded tolls. [...] The Taliban takeover of Afghanistan also relied on crucial help from Pakistan. By 1994 Pakistan was tiring of its Afghan mujahideen puppet, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s its Inter-Services Intelligence had channeled more arms and money from the CIA to Hekmatyar's radical-fundamentalist faction than to any of the more moderate mujahideen groups. Hekmatyar was young, charismatic, highly educated, and power-hungry. Yet his attraction for the ISI lay in the fact that he had little grassroots support inside Afghanistan itself and was thus beholden to the Pakistanis. The continuing anarchy in Afghanistan after the departure of the Soviets showed the fundamental flaw in the ISI's policy. Hekmatyar could never consolidate power to the extent Pakistan required in order to safeguard its land routes to the new oil states of Central Asia -- routes that would create a bulwark of Muslim states that could confront India. It was a democratically elected Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, along with her Interior Minister, the retired general Naseerullah Babar, who conceived of the Taliban as a solution to Pakistan's problem. Through the ISI the Bhutto government began to provide the Taliban with money, fuel, subsidized wheat, vehicles, weapons, and volunteers from Pakistan's madrassas. It also linked Afghanistan to Pakistan's telephone grid. But the Taliban won't play the role of puppet. And Afghanistan's religious extremism is accelerating Pakistan's, through the network of madrassas. Furthermore, the future of the Taliban themselves is uncertain. They have restored security in Afghanistan by disarming much of the countryside, but they have built no institutions to sustain their rule -- and 70 percent of working-age Afghans are jobless. Just as the Taliban rose and spread like Islam itself, they could also descend into disorderly power struggles, much like the medieval Muslim rulers who followed the prophet Mohammed. Yes, the CIA gave money to the ISI. Nobody disputes that. Yes, we supported the mujehedeen. Nobody disputes that either. What I and many others dispute is the connection between CIA support of the mujehedeen implying explict or implicit support of bin Laden. I've not seen what I consider to be good evidence for that claim. There's a difference between, say, saying, "Timothy McVeigh received training in the Army" and saying "The Army was behind Timothy McVeigh's bombing in OKC." I hope we all agree that there's a big difference.... Many of the claims (out on the web, etc.) of CIA support of bin Laden strike me as being similar distortions. (I'm not accusing anyone here of distorting anything.) But, as always, I'm interested in seeing contrary evidence if there is any. What would I consider good evidence? Reports from Bearden (the man who ran the CIA operation) that bin Laden was indeed supported by the CIA. Reports from members of groups which got CIA money that they knew bin Laden and that he also got CIA support. Congressional reports. Investigative reports by reputable groups or people along with citations so that readers could see the original sources. Things like that. Note that these things exist for things like Ollie North's Iran/Contra operation, the CIA's attempts against Castro, the US's actions against Allende, etc.... I think I'm done in this sub-thread. Thanks, all. Cheers, Scott.
Post #19,003 by Brandioch 11/20/01 3:30:06 PM Reply	You use terms you don't understand. Look back at my post that started this thread. It was in response to your post about, and I summarize, the US bombing anyone that attacks the US in any way. I pointed out that the US was the instigator in that we had fucked with their countries first. From the CIA working to overthrow existing regimes to our funding death squads. I also pointed out that Osama was trained by us. You didn't like that single line. So I provided links. You didn't like the links. You have a fucked up idea of what such training entails. No, the CIA did not sit Osama down at a desk, in a class room and give him an AK-47 to field strip. No, the CIA did not sit Osama down and lecture him from a book on military tactics. Yes, the CIA did provide funding, equipment and trainers for him. But your fucked up view of what "training" is doesn't even matter. The original point was that WE fucked with them FIRST. Your position was that if THEY fucked with US, we'd bomb them. Listen up. WE STARTED IT. So, if OUR policy is "fuck with us and we'll fuck you up", THEN WHY CAN'T THEY HAVE THE SAME POLICY? If you say they can, then you have no position because we've already fucked with them. If you say they can't, then you're advocating a pure military might policy. Just like any other fascist does. sux2bu
Post #19,004 by Brandioch 11/20/01 3:35:21 PM Reply	Rather than edit that. I'll just make an addition here. Skip the part about your post starting it. I know that was marlowe.
Post #19,005 by bepatient 11/20/01 3:41:33 PM Reply	Nit? Who...exactly did we start it with...and who...exactly...are we fighting. Of course...the Taliban are bearing the brunt of the attacks at the moment...but didn't all the links basically say we gave them money and training? So exactly what did we start with them? Of course...you can't say we destabilized the nation of terrorists...because...um...they have no nation? Minor point, I know. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #19,014 by Brandioch 11/20/01 5:06:17 PM Reply	One step at a time. Okay, Bill. #1. Were the Taliban in control of Afghanistan all the time? #2. If not, when did they take control? #3. Whom did they take control from? #4. What part of "destabilizing existing regimes" don't you understand?
Post #19,071 by TTC 11/20/01 10:32:50 PM Reply	Straight to the point. Listen up. WE STARTED IT. So, if OUR policy is "fuck with us and we'll fuck you up", THEN WHY CAN'T THEY HAVE THE SAME POLICY? If you say they can, then you have no position because we've already fucked with them. If you say they can't, then you're advocating a pure military might policy.
Post #18,978 by Brandioch 11/20/01 1:55:34 PM Reply	I didn't put you in it. You volunteered yourself.
Post #18,888 by ben_tilly 11/19/01 9:16:48 PM Reply	Please Edit ASAP! Please turn the above into a link with much shorter text. The length of the line is making this whole thread unreadable. Thank you, Ben
Post #18,874 by marlowe 11/19/01 7:26:25 PM Reply	Well, at least he's trying. Sort of. He seems to have absolutely no clue of what constitutes evidence of malicicous intent, or even basic logic. (Even if we grant bin Laden was trained by the CIA, to blame the CIA for his crimes is like blaming the Unabomer's chemistry professor for his bombs. Or the US mail, for that matter.) But this is a step up from ranting. If only Brandioch would follow my example in more than the superficialities. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #18,981 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:05:44 PM Reply	WTF? "He seems to have absolutely no clue of what constitutes evidence of malicicous intent, or even basic logic." What the fuck are you talking about? "(Even if we grant bin Laden was trained by the CIA, to blame the CIA for his crimes is like blaming the Unabomer's chemistry professor for his bombs. Or the US mail, for that matter.)" What the fuck are you talking about? When have I ever said that? "If only Brandioch would follow my example in more than the superficialities." I'd rather not if the above quotes are the examples. Listen, I'll use very small words for you. The other people in the world think that we are bad guys because we pay people to kill people we do not like. Then we pay other people to kill the people we paid the first time. If the people do not kill the people we tell them to kill, we kill their wives and children. Is that simple enough for you?
Post #18,986 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:20:12 PM Reply	And I notice you didn't answer my question. To summarize your position: If anyone attacks the US in any way, we'll retaliate. As I've pointed out, the US is the instigator in these incidents. So, care to revise your position: We'll fuck around with you and your country all we want, but if you attack us, we'll bomb you back to the stone age. And you wonder why people are willing to give their lives to hit back at us?
Post #18,921 by bluke 11/20/01 3:56:39 AM Reply	The specific case of Bin Laden is irrelevant It is a documented fact that the CIA and other government agencies helped numerous dictators in the past including the Shah, Saddam Hussein (in the 80's), Pinochet, and many others. In fact, current government policy still helps numerous nasty regimes including Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Uzbequistan, the Northern Alliance, etc. The US government even tried to cozy up to Syria recently. Not a democracy in sight, in fact not a single country that has even a shred of respect for human rights. If this is not a double standard then what is?
Post #18,947 by inthane-chan 11/20/01 11:31:49 AM Reply	While I agree for the most part... ...we do also back some democracies as well. Not that by any means that forgives our support of those other nations, but I just wanted to make it clear, that yes, the U.S. does on occasion support democratically-elected governments. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #18,920 by bluke 11/20/01 3:48:59 AM Reply	Their affairs are our affairs Who gives Egypt 2+ billion dollars a year which allows Mubarak to be President for life? Whose troops are sitting in Saudia Arabia protecting the royal family? Whose CIA overthrew the Iranina government and installed the Shah? Who is now giving Pakistan (a military dictatorship) millions of dollars to help the government stay in power? Who supported Saddam Hussein in the 1980's against Iran? Who just destroyed the existing government of Afghanistan? You can't just wash hands your hands of all this. The bottom line is that the US supports alot of nasty regimes all over the world.
Post #18,926 by hnick 11/20/01 7:20:57 AM Reply	Oh, quit whining... We are largely a society with a very short attention span. None of our leaders since Eisenhower (and I have my doubts about him) has thought much beyond the next election. We supported a number of political/religous intolerant thugs... we supported Israel... but I repeat myself... The Taliban was aiding and abetting terrorists, so they were targeted. We have no particular duty to Afghanistan. Our actions in Afghanistan and the ME in general are to further our intrests. Handwashing is a matter of personal hygiene. -H
Post #18,932 by bluke 11/20/01 9:39:27 AM Reply	Then don't be surprised that the world hates you You can't take that attitude and then expect the world to march to your beat.
Post #18,944 by hnick 11/20/01 10:54:31 AM Reply	Let's assume, for the moment, that you are serious.... The world is not united against the US. The Mid East has elements who are pissed off at virtually anything. Until we get free of oil dependency, we have to deal with it. The various societies that make up the population of this planet ALL work toward their self-interest. They support our policies when it is in their interests. They don't "march to our beat" because we're such nice guys. They want something. We have an oil dependency. The ME has oil. The ME is working solely toward their own self-interest. There is absolutely no altruism involved. Why should we be expected to be altruistic? Why should we be expected to work against our self-interest? You wouldn't be proposing something culturally insensitive, like perhaps daytime TV has turned us collectively into mush-brained retards, or something similar? You have a problem with us buying corrupt politicians in other countries? What, we're supposed to have a monopoly on corrupt politicians? Like we were told in the 80's and 90's when we whined that the Japs were buying America(ignoring the fact that the English already owned far more than the Japs ever could): No sellers, no buyers. No matter what we do, somebody will be displeased. We may as well try to please ourselves; we have a shot at that. -Hugh
Post #18,980 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:01:36 PM Reply	Incorrect. "Until we get free of oil dependency, we have to deal with it. " Wrong. The oil dependency is the reason we KEEP interfering in their affairs. Getting off the oil would only mean we wouldn't have a reason to interfer (aside from treaties and alliances and such) (or moral issues). The question is whether we're working towards our short term interests or long term interests.
Post #19,017 by hnick 11/20/01 5:25:11 PM Reply	I was unclear Until we get free of oil dependency, we have to deal with oil dependency. Not anybody in particular. There are a number of ways to deal with it. While we are dependent, deal with it we must. I am not advocating any particular means of dealing with it. The powers that be, who laid the foundations for this mess do not consult me for my opinions, nor have they ever. The only reason I got in this thread was irritation at bluke's presumption that we should somehow, without the benifit of sainthood, please everybody in the ME, and support some mythical brotherhood of man ahead of our own interests. I think I'm done with this thread; please yourselves...
Post #18,784 by marlowe 11/19/01 12:00:20 PM Reply	Three strikes and you're maimed? I'm no fan of the Northern Alliance. They're certainly not civilized or decent in comaprison with the West. But they're still a step up from the Taliban. How that for damning with faint praise? I hope something better comes along. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.

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