Post #185,430
11/29/04 4:23:30 PM
11/29/04 5:44:49 PM
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My sister has a non-working install of Quicktime. On OSX.
Further - does ALL mac software use the same installer? Have the same dependencies?
Does the mac package handler check dependencies? Does it update any necessary extensions when installing things? Update the OS if necessary? Add new drivers?
The point is, I do not believe in the 'magic' desktop that installs everything with a 'click'.
I DO believe in an OS that installs ALMOST everything with a 'click', though. I've seen it. It's Debian. Administered graphically. Linux.
I can believe that Mac OSX might approach this; I haven't seen it though. I try not to disparage things I know little about.
The reason you cite for the failure of 'desktop linux' is applicable to Windows, to Mac, and yes, even to OS/2. (edit: I use "though" too often)
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
Nov. 29, 2004, 04:35:22 PM EST
Edited by imric
Nov. 29, 2004, 05:44:49 PM EST
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Post #185,435
11/29/04 4:34:48 PM
8/21/07 6:07:13 AM
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That would be the exceptional case
Different data point - when I use a Mac, things mostly work but occasionally there are problems. My linux experience is things mostly have problems but things occasionally work.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,437
11/29/04 4:36:10 PM
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*grin* see edited post above
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #185,452
11/29/04 5:39:57 PM
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I would like to offer you the same evidence.
My experiences in both OSX and Debian Linux are equivalent on the rate of failure to success. (For me really any Linux variant)
Sure, it took me a while to stop suckling on the command-line teat, but I did do it. But that was a while ago... and the fond memories have faded to a general warm-feeling inside.
It is actually a toss up as to wether or not Windows will work after an installation of said game, or of said Spyware, Adware, OS updates... anything, it all depends on the moon phases and what the tea leaves look like. For those with a sacrifical bent, how many fertile chickens you slaughter and drain the blood from and burn in the fire.
Linux and MAC OSX both have a very robust set of features that can be turned off and on when and how you like. You are just more familiar with MAC by choice, Windows because of the 92% number.
I am more familiar with Linux in General (love that Debian Sid) than I am with MAC OSX, but there again I know Windows because of that 92% number.
So, in effect you are telling me, the reason I don't like MAC OSX is because I don't understand it... I am telling you you don't like Linux because you don't understand it.
Sure, I love Linux as much as you Love OSX, effectively we are both zealots... just to different beholdings.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #185,470
11/29/04 7:05:46 PM
8/21/07 6:07:58 AM
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Then tell me how to install firefox
and I'll shut up.
No I can't install debian - this is a corporate box.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,491
11/29/04 8:32:13 PM
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Holy Crap.
Look at the [link|http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/system-requirements.html|system requirements]: Linux
Software RequirementsPlease note that Linux distributors may provide packages for your distribution which have different requirements.- Linux kernel - 2.2.14 with the following libraries or packages minimums:
- glibc 2.3.2
- XFree86-3.3.6
- gtk+2.0
- fontconfig (also known as xft)
- libstdc++5
- Firefox has been tested on Red Hat Linux 8.0 and later
Minimum Hardware- Intel Pentium II or AMD K6-III+ 233 MHz CPU (Recommended: 500MHz or greater)
- 64 MB RAM (Recommended: 128 MB RAM or greater)
- 52 MB hard drive space
Seems they don't believe in static linking anymore. And you'll never get xft/fontconfig on enigma, GTK v2.0 is waaaay newer than what you have on your machine. I'll bet you have gtk v1.2 on that machine. And, no, I don't care about you putting Debian on it. It would be nice if you could though. To check to see what version you have try: rpm -qa | grep -i -e gtk -e glibc -e libstdc -e XFree -e xft -e fontconfigBet you find that you are woefully out of date. -- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #185,494
11/29/04 8:42:48 PM
8/21/07 6:08:16 AM
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Looks pretty grim
only XFree86 is new enough.
I'll have to start digging in the prod group and see what is in production (we need to mirror production - ya know?)
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,505
11/29/04 9:59:28 PM
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If they say...
Put on whatever you want...
Try the new [link|http://ftp.cs.umn.edu/pub/ubuntu-releases/.pool/warty-install-i386.iso|Ubuntu v4.1 Warty]
I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #185,444
11/29/04 5:04:04 PM
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Drag & Drop installation
[link|http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars|ars technica review] of Delicious Library covers the standard method of installation under Mac OS X on [link|http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars/2|page 2].
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #185,450
11/29/04 5:36:55 PM
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Glad
to hear it; are those images required for software installation, though? And do they take into account dependencies?
Sounds like ease of use approaches that of Debian, though, if the disk image packaging format is used.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #185,476
11/29/04 7:32:47 PM
8/21/07 6:08:08 AM
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Disk images are easiest
You put your app in a folder - hilight the folder and select "Make disk image" from the File menu. A .dmg file is created. Ship it.
Are the images necessary. No, of course not. They just make it more fun.
I don't get the dependency obsession - OS X comes with rich api. If you depend on something not in the api, put it in your app wrapper so it drags with your app.
Apps should be self contained. Duh.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,508
11/29/04 10:21:11 PM
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*shrug*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #185,461
11/29/04 6:32:46 PM
8/21/07 6:07:41 AM
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Answers
does ALL mac software use the same installer? Have the same dependencies?
Yes - as much as for anything else. I'm sure there are rogue programs on all systems so I don't think ALL applies anywhere.
There are two distro formats - install packages (ending in .pkg) and disk images (*.dmg). Disk images you just double click and they mount - either you drag the app on the image into your application folder, or its a package installer thing and you double click it and follow the instructions. The installer is provided by apple and is generally a gui on shell scripts. Yes, even stuff like postgres is installed via the package installer. Things are occasionally tar.gz'd. The system knows how to deal with these - just double click them.
Does the mac package handler check dependencies?
Yes it does. It also automatically prelinks shared libs when they are installed which vastly improves app startup time.
Does it update any necessary extensions when installing things? Update the OS if necessary? Add new drivers?
Jeezus I hope not. How can you guarantee stability if you do that stuff for an application install. It will check OS version for compatibility though.
The point is, I do not believe in the 'magic' desktop that installs everything with a 'click'.
Hmmm. I do not believe in fucking with the OS for an application install. Write to stable interfaces people! If you need some optional package - bundle it in your app, add an installation script to go get it, or have the installer instruct the user to install the required functionality.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,464
11/29/04 6:40:37 PM
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Re: Answers
If you need some optional package - bundle it in your app, add an installation script to go get it, or have the installer instruct the user to install the required functionality. Bleah, why would I want to go through that trouble, when I can just say "this depends on X, Y, and Z... let the user decide if they want them automatically installed or not" and the built-in installer takes care of the rest, keeping the entire state of the system in mind for me. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #185,469
11/29/04 7:04:13 PM
8/21/07 6:07:54 AM
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Yabut
the system requirements on linux seem fragile.
Firefox install failed on a std C library version issue? WTF?
This just never happens on the mac as far as I can see. Most stuff simply drag n drop installs.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #185,485
11/29/04 8:14:39 PM
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OLD, OLD, OLD
The libc version on Engima was missing them when it was published. The had an update to take care of it.
To get Firefox installed you need to use the statically linked version of firefox against the libc5 versions.
It sucks, but you experience this when trying to install the latest game requiring DirectX v9.0g which is not available for Win98 and never will be. But v9.0c did work... so it isn't just a failing on a standard, it is a failing to keep it up-to-date.
I can drag and drop installs too. I use synaptic for that.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #185,500
11/29/04 9:13:14 PM
11/29/04 9:19:12 PM
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Gah.
Todd. Linux is the KERNEL. You're really talking about "RedHat Linux".
This kind of stuff doesn't happen on Debian either. That's why I said, "bleah". I don't have to worry about that kind of crap.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Edited by admin
Nov. 29, 2004, 09:19:12 PM EST
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Post #185,509
11/29/04 10:26:37 PM
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But...
didn't YOU chide ME for bringing up old versions?
*chuckle*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
