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New Odd.
Personally, I think your conclusion is false. By that logic, Mac was NEVER ready for the desktop.

My sister couldn't run a quicktime movie on her OSX box this weekend (quicktime wouldn't run, the install was bad) - and it ran fine on my Debian-based Linux Thinkpad - should I conclude that Mac OSX is still not ready as a desktop?

And as for pre-OSX, I seem to remember running around different compression formats / installation package formats that required Aladdin, or some such program. I guess Mac wasn't ready for the desktop then, either.

In contrast, nothing like that happens when I use any of the Debian package management programs (the desktop program is Synaptic). Kpackage will install packages if you click on the icon of a downloaded package.

I seem to remember that even the Redhat package management system installed things with a click on the downloaded package's icon.

To disparage 'linux' because Firefox didn't have a 'package' available for download is a bit extreme. After all, programs distributed for the Mac had the same 'problem', no?

or WASN'T the Mac ever ready for prime-time?



Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New False analogy
"My sister couldn't run a quicktime movie on her OSX box this weekend (quicktime wouldn't run, the install was bad)"

There's nothing wrong with this install.

My point is the lack of a standard mechanism for reliable software distribution for end user software.

"My sister couldn't run a quicktime movie on her OSX box this weekend (quicktime wouldn't run, the install was bad)"

Well, as a Mac user since 1989, I've found that 99% of the time, you simply click a link and are lead through an obvious series of steps that results in your software being installed.

As a linux user, I've found that 99% of the time the result is failure for typically mystifying reasons.

It's (the user experience) not ready for end users.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:06:57 AM EDT
New On *which* distribution?
Until you answer that, you're just hand-waving. "Linux" is the kernel. "desktop Linux" is a fantasy. Which distribution are you having issues with?

I don't have that kind of problem on my machine.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I don't know
how would I find out? I did a uname -a which wasn't very descriptive.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:01 AM EDT
New Dunno.
Mine says "GNU/Linux" which is typical of a Debian installation. Greg would probably know.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Only clue I have is original install uses "disco"
or something like that.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:18 AM EDT
New Google says it's RedHat
Not because of "disco", though: [link|http://news.com.com/2100-1001-275155.html?legacy=cnet|http://news.com.com/....html?legacy=cnet] :-)

If that machine is running RedHat, no wonder you think program installation in Linux sucks.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Ha! :-)
New To finger out your release and distro...
The uname -a gave me an inkling.

cat /etc/redhat-release

or to find out what release, some distros use /etc/<something>-release or /etc/release-<something>

Other like Debian and such use both /etc/issue* and/or /etc/motd*

basically, I gotsa feeling "RHWS v3.0+patches/updates"

And Todd, you are utterly right, RHWS is utter crap compared to many other easier to manage distros.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New RH 7.2 (Enigma). Enigma? You're telling me.
% cat /etc/redhat-release
Red Hat Linux release 7.2 (Enigma)



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:08:03 AM EDT
New Now you have to wonder.
7.2 is actually quite OLD.

August - 2001. Three and a half years old.

And, let me ask you, you expect 3 1/2 year old (actually more like 4.5 based on the compiler used to make enigma) to actually just RUN Firefox?

Umm, yeah. Okay.

I think your judgement of Linux based on Enigma (redhat 7.2) IS NOT TYPICAL today, using a updated Distro.

Enigma was the second worst (in bugs, security and just flat out problems) redhat release right behind RedHat 6.1, which was compromisable two weeks before it was released.

Try an [link|http://ftp.cs.umn.edu/pub/ubuntu-releases/.pool/warty-live-i386.iso|Ubuntu LiveCD] in it. Then make a judgement. Of course you'll have to give a few points for running from CD... as the CD Reader is the biggest holdup there.

--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Yes, now I wonder what we are running
in production.

:-/



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:08:09 AM EDT
New Windows XP was released over 3 years ago :P
That said, IMHO the punctuated equilibrium style of OS releases just isn't suited to Linux and OSS. I imagine that's why many of you use Debian.
--
Chris Altmann
New Indeed, indeed.
once a week (for me at the minimum):
dselect update && apt-get -u dist-upgrade


I live dangerously as well. with Experimental as my default.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Doesn't tell you at the login prompt?
'ow queer.

Uname -a will reveal the distro for all the majors.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Really?
  1. Hmm:
    [greg@king:~]$ uname -a
    Linux king 2.6.8-1-k7 #1 Thu Nov 25 04:13:37 UTC 2004 i686 GNU/Linux
    [greg@king:~]$
  2. Hmmm:
    [greg@knight:greg]$ uname -a
    Linux knight 2.4.27-1-k7 #1 Fri Sep 3 06:21:29 UTC 2004 i686 GNU/Linux
    [greg@knight:greg]$
  3. Hmmmmm:
    greg@ariel:~$ uname -a
    Linux ariel 2.6.8 #1 Mon Sep 27 10:29:27 BST 2004 i686 GNU/Linux
    greg@ariel:~$
  4. HMM:
    [greg@wamgr:greg]$ uname -a
    Linux wamgr 2.4.26 #1 Thu Apr 15 13:02:11 EDT 2004 i686 unknown
    [greg@wamgr:greg]$
  5. HMMMM:
    [greg@mail greg]$ uname -a
    Linux mail 2.4.20-20.7 #1 Mon Aug 18 15:05:54 EDT 2003 i686 unknown
    [greg@mail greg]$


Tell me, what Distributions all 5 machines are please.



--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New You're a primadonna
Most Linuxes tell you.

The fact that yours do not proves nothing.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Disagree
[broom@mix broom]$ uname -a
Linux mix 2.4.9-e.30smp #1 SMP Fri Nov 28 07:18:53 EST 2003 i686 unknown

[broom@mash broom]$ uname -a
Linux mash 2.4.21-20.ELsmp #1 SMP Wed Aug 18 20:31:57 EDT 2004 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux

[broom@dice broom]$ uname -a
Linux dice 2.4.18-19.7.xsmp #1 SMP Thu Dec 12 07:56:58 EST 2002 i686 unknown

<rend broom pts/4 /home/broom>
$ uname -a
Linux rend 2.4.20-18.7smp #1 SMP Thu May 29 07:49:23 EDT 2003 i686 unknown

<slice broom pts/0 /home/broom>
$ uname -a
Linux slice 2.4.18-19.7.xsmp #1 SMP Thu Dec 12 07:56:58 EST 2002 i686 unknown

[broom@stomp broom]$ uname -a
Linux stomp.cc3.com 2.4.21-20.ELsmp #1 SMP Wed Aug 18 20:46:40 EDT 2004 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux

<rip broom pts/0 /home/broom>
$ uname -a
Linux rip 2.4.20-18.7smp #1 SMP Thu May 29 07:49:23 EDT 2003 i686 unknown

<shred broom pts/1 /ldhome/broom>
$ uname -a
Linux shred 2.4.21-4.ELsmp #1 SMP Fri Oct 3 17:52:56 EDT 2003 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux

Shall I go on? All of the are from a major commercial distributer, installed in as a vanilla fashion as possible.




New Take a CLOSER look.
You'll see one of them is *YOUR* machine. Sheesh.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New ...which has a custom kernel...
...which makes it not "most" distros :-)

Speaking of. I really ought to get a stock kernel on there.

I'm firmly in the "rolling your own kernels is a waste of time unless it's unavoidable" camp ,these days.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Shhhhush. You'll wake the UnixMonster.
Er, actually, that might not be a bad idea... :-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New But NONE of mine are
New Fairynuff.
SuSE and Mandrake, IIRC, brand their kernels, as does (did, once, I saw it, honest) Red Hat.

And if they've STOPPED doing it, then, why, I shall have to start a campaign to get them to START doing it.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Debian?
Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New It is an apt analogy.
My (limited) Mac experience started with 8 - and as far as the last install of a browser I did went, I first had to download the package. Then I had to download and install an 'unstuffer'. then I couldn't get the installer to run. Then I had to search out a reason why on the 'net. I had to try a number of different solutions, IIRC.

Bottom line is, after my experience with 8, and hearing/(and dealing with, when I was home) my old man's problems with connecting to the net via cable modem on 9 (he got so frustrated that he dropped cable access and bought a Windows notebook), I stopped believing in the Mac 'magic' desktop. What annoyed you was not even bad software; it was a website that didn't offer you exactly what you wanted. If THAT was a reason to disparage the 'linux desktop', then the problems I had with my (and my father's) Macs are more than enough to disparage the 'mac desktop'.

If you argue that I should have known more about what was installed on my macs, and the package formats and handlers needed to install something, well, pot-kettle-black. If you argue that a websites offering a software package that doesn't install simply and cleanly means the desktop sucks, well, then, macs must suck.

My sister had a software package that was badly installed (quicktime I assume). YOU had a software that was badly installed.

As to your 'percentages', well, it's MY experience that they are not only exaggerated - they should be reversed. I've had VERY few problems of any sort since I 'went Debian' - I had fewer problems dealing with my linux boxes than with my old Macs even when I was using Redhat for that matter. Of course, I use package management systems.

The analogy is APT.

And no, I don't believe that there are problems with the mac desktop.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New You're citing 10 year old software
to justify your position. 10 years ago Windows sucked eggs too. So did linux.

TODAY I can generally click on a link and end up with running software on both Mac OS X and Windows (any recent rev).




"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:03 AM EDT
New My sister has a non-working install of Quicktime. On OSX.
Further - does ALL mac software use the same installer? Have the same dependencies?

Does the mac package handler check dependencies? Does it update any necessary extensions when installing things? Update the OS if necessary? Add new drivers?

The point is, I do not believe in the 'magic' desktop that installs everything with a 'click'.

I DO believe in an OS that installs ALMOST everything with a 'click', though. I've seen it. It's Debian. Administered graphically. Linux.

I can believe that Mac OSX might approach this; I haven't seen it though. I try not to disparage things I know little about.

The reason you cite for the failure of 'desktop linux' is applicable to Windows, to Mac, and yes, even to OS/2. (edit: I use "though" too often)

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric Nov. 29, 2004, 04:35:22 PM EST
Expand Edited by imric Nov. 29, 2004, 05:44:49 PM EST
New That would be the exceptional case
Different data point - when I use a Mac, things mostly work but occasionally there are problems. My linux experience is things mostly have problems but things occasionally work.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:13 AM EDT
New *grin* see edited post above

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New I would like to offer you the same evidence.
My experiences in both OSX and Debian Linux are equivalent on the rate of failure to success. (For me really any Linux variant)

Sure, it took me a while to stop suckling on the command-line teat, but I did do it. But that was a while ago... and the fond memories have faded to a general warm-feeling inside.

It is actually a toss up as to wether or not Windows will work after an installation of said game, or of said Spyware, Adware, OS updates... anything, it all depends on the moon phases and what the tea leaves look like. For those with a sacrifical bent, how many fertile chickens you slaughter and drain the blood from and burn in the fire.

Linux and MAC OSX both have a very robust set of features that can be turned off and on when and how you like. You are just more familiar with MAC by choice, Windows because of the 92% number.

I am more familiar with Linux in General (love that Debian Sid) than I am with MAC OSX, but there again I know Windows because of that 92% number.

So, in effect you are telling me, the reason I don't like MAC OSX is because I don't understand it... I am telling you you don't like Linux because you don't understand it.

Sure, I love Linux as much as you Love OSX, effectively we are both zealots... just to different beholdings.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Then tell me how to install firefox
and I'll shut up.

No I can't install debian - this is a corporate box.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Nov. 29, 2004, 07:06:34 PM EST
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:58 AM EDT
New Holy Crap.
Look at the [link|http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/system-requirements.html|system requirements]:

Linux


Software Requirements
Please note that Linux distributors may provide packages for your distribution which have different requirements.
  • Linux kernel - 2.2.14 with the following libraries or packages minimums:
    • glibc 2.3.2
    • XFree86-3.3.6
    • gtk+2.0
    • fontconfig (also known as xft)
    • libstdc++5
  • Firefox has been tested on Red Hat Linux 8.0 and later
Minimum Hardware
  • Intel Pentium II or AMD K6-III+ 233 MHz CPU (Recommended: 500MHz or greater)
  • 64 MB RAM (Recommended: 128 MB RAM or greater)
  • 52 MB hard drive space


Seems they don't believe in static linking anymore.

And you'll never get xft/fontconfig on enigma, GTK v2.0 is waaaay newer than what you have on your machine. I'll bet you have gtk v1.2 on that machine.

And, no, I don't care about you putting Debian on it. It would be nice if you could though.

To check to see what version you have try:

rpm -qa | grep -i -e gtk -e glibc -e libstdc -e XFree -e xft -e fontconfig

Bet you find that you are woefully out of date.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Looks pretty grim
only XFree86 is new enough.

I'll have to start digging in the prod group and see what is in production (we need to mirror production - ya know?)



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:08:16 AM EDT
New If they say...
Put on whatever you want...

Try the new [link|http://ftp.cs.umn.edu/pub/ubuntu-releases/.pool/warty-install-i386.iso|Ubuntu v4.1 Warty]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Drag & Drop installation
[link|http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars|ars technica review] of Delicious Library covers the standard method of installation under Mac OS X on [link|http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars/2|page 2].
Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
New Glad
to hear it; are those images required for software installation, though? And do they take into account dependencies?

Sounds like ease of use approaches that of Debian, though, if the disk image packaging format is used.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Disk images are easiest
You put your app in a folder - hilight the folder and select "Make disk image" from the File menu. A .dmg file is created. Ship it.

Are the images necessary. No, of course not. They just make it more fun.

I don't get the dependency obsession - OS X comes with rich api. If you depend on something not in the api, put it in your app wrapper so it drags with your app.

Apps should be self contained. Duh.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Nov. 29, 2004, 07:37:00 PM EST
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:08:08 AM EDT
New *shrug*

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Answers
does ALL mac software use the same installer? Have the same dependencies?

Yes - as much as for anything else. I'm sure there are rogue programs on all systems so I don't think ALL applies anywhere.

There are two distro formats - install packages (ending in .pkg) and disk images (*.dmg). Disk images you just double click and they mount - either you drag the app on the image into your application folder, or its a package installer thing and you double click it and follow the instructions. The installer is provided by apple and is generally a gui on shell scripts. Yes, even stuff like postgres is installed via the package installer. Things are occasionally tar.gz'd. The system knows how to deal with these - just double click them.

Does the mac package handler check dependencies?
Yes it does. It also automatically prelinks shared libs when they are installed which vastly improves app startup time.

Does it update any necessary extensions when installing things? Update the OS if necessary? Add new drivers?

Jeezus I hope not. How can you guarantee stability if you do that stuff for an application install. It will check OS version for compatibility though.

The point is, I do not believe in the 'magic' desktop that installs everything with a 'click'.

Hmmm. I do not believe in fucking with the OS for an application install. Write to stable interfaces people! If you need some optional package - bundle it in your app, add an installation script to go get it, or have the installer instruct the user to install the required functionality.




"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:41 AM EDT
New Re: Answers
If you need some optional package - bundle it in your app, add an installation script to go get it, or have the installer instruct the user to install the required functionality.
Bleah, why would I want to go through that trouble, when I can just say "this depends on X, Y, and Z... let the user decide if they want them automatically installed or not" and the built-in installer takes care of the rest, keeping the entire state of the system in mind for me.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Yabut
the system requirements on linux seem fragile.

Firefox install failed on a std C library version issue? WTF?

This just never happens on the mac as far as I can see. Most stuff simply drag n drop installs.



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:07:54 AM EDT
New OLD, OLD, OLD
The libc version on Engima was missing them when it was published. The had an update to take care of it.


To get Firefox installed you need to use the statically linked version of firefox against the libc5 versions.

It sucks, but you experience this when trying to install the latest game requiring DirectX v9.0g which is not available for Win98 and never will be. But v9.0c did work... so it isn't just a failing on a standard, it is a failing to keep it up-to-date.

I can drag and drop installs too. I use synaptic for that.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
New Gah.
Todd. Linux is the KERNEL. You're really talking about "RedHat Linux".

This kind of stuff doesn't happen on Debian either. That's why I said, "bleah". I don't have to worry about that kind of crap.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Expand Edited by admin Nov. 29, 2004, 09:19:12 PM EST
New But...
didn't YOU chide ME for bringing up old versions?

*chuckle*

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
     Firefox installation - (tuberculosis) - (72)
         Er, no... - (admin) - (24)
             No, his point is well taken. - (jake123) - (10)
                 Missed mine. - (admin) - (2)
                     That may very well be - (jake123) - (1)
                         But like I said - (admin)
                 There should be a standard desktop place to get new apps. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     Very odd. - (admin) - (3)
                         I'll try again and report back. Thanks. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                             Results of trying apt-get for Privoxy on ProMEPIS. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 apt-get update doesn't do much. - (admin)
                     Check out... - (folkert) - (1)
                         Thanks. I always appreciate your help. -NT - (Another Scott)
             zsh: command not found: apt-get - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                 apt-get is a Debian thinger. - (Another Scott)
                 That still isn't the point. - (admin) - (9)
                     Does not compute - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                         Hand waving. - (admin)
                         You don't manage the machine. - (folkert) - (6)
                             You guys are all confused - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                                 Now, come on Todd. - (folkert)
                                 Here's how to get Firefox on RedHat 7.2. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Wha??? - (Yendor) - (1)
                                         Danke. I looked a bit, but not enough I guess. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott)
                                 fink runs fine on my mac? - (daemon)
                 I wondered when the change would happen. -NT - (folkert)
         Odd. - (imric) - (43)
             False analogy - (tuberculosis) - (42)
                 On *which* distribution? - (admin) - (21)
                     I don't know - (tuberculosis) - (20)
                         Dunno. - (admin) - (3)
                             Only clue I have is original install uses "disco" - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                 Google says it's RedHat - (admin) - (1)
                                     Ha! :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                         To finger out your release and distro... - (folkert) - (5)
                             RH 7.2 (Enigma). Enigma? You're telling me. - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                 Now you have to wonder. - (folkert) - (3)
                                     Yes, now I wonder what we are running - (tuberculosis)
                                     Windows XP was released over 3 years ago :P - (altmann) - (1)
                                         Indeed, indeed. - (folkert)
                         Doesn't tell you at the login prompt? - (pwhysall) - (9)
                             Really? - (folkert) - (8)
                                 You're a primadonna - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                     Disagree - (broomberg)
                                     Take a CLOSER look. - (folkert) - (4)
                                         ...which has a custom kernel... - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                             Shhhhush. You'll wake the UnixMonster. - (Another Scott)
                                             But NONE of mine are -NT - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                 Fairynuff. - (pwhysall)
                                 Debian? - (imric)
                 It is an apt analogy. - (imric) - (19)
                     You're citing 10 year old software - (tuberculosis) - (18)
                         My sister has a non-working install of Quicktime. On OSX. - (imric) - (17)
                             That would be the exceptional case - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                 *grin* see edited post above -NT - (imric)
                                 I would like to offer you the same evidence. - (folkert) - (4)
                                     Then tell me how to install firefox - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                         Holy Crap. - (folkert) - (2)
                                             Looks pretty grim - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                 If they say... - (folkert)
                             Drag & Drop installation - (SpiceWare) - (3)
                                 Glad - (imric) - (2)
                                     Disk images are easiest - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                         *shrug* -NT - (imric)
                             Answers - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                                 Re: Answers - (admin) - (4)
                                     Yabut - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                         OLD, OLD, OLD - (folkert)
                                         Gah. - (admin)
                                         But... - (imric)
         Uninformed tosh, I'm afraid. - (pwhysall) - (2)
             I've now read the whole thread. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 OT: "HEADCRABS!" -NT - (inthane-chan)

Oh, you've got an umbrella. You've got a purse.
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