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New Ever use Zachary?
100% control tables. Completely opaque. Great if it did exactly what you needed it to do. Impossible if it didn't. Impossible to debug when it went wrong, and horrific to maintain.

We've already been over control tables. They don't work well, and the procedural code that depends on them becomes a morass of branching (go read the thread again if you've forgotten).

Edit: I looked up Zachary. Discontinued, but you can get consultants to support it for $850 and hour. Eck.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Expand Edited by admin Nov. 6, 2004, 12:09:32 PM EST
New I will believe it only when I see it with my own eyes
We've already been over control tables. They don't work well

I do not remember any fundimental in-born flaw being given. I don't mean vendors not supporting them for version control or running too slow on Sun boxes, I mean fundimental organizational flaws to them. I have already admitted that existing tools don't play well with them sometimes, but that is because they are geared toward what I consider archaic technologies such as hierarchical file systems and file-based code. The real evil is files, not tables. QWERTY syndrome.

and the procedural code that depends on them becomes a morass of branching (go read the thread again if you've forgotten).

Please show me such code. Maybe I have an idea to fix the mess that you never thought of. I don't remember you ever showing such code. Show me an instance of control tables barfing on the rug and being fixed by objects or XML.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New - said the blind man (ducks and runs)
--

This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet.

-- [link|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx|The] Daily WTF

New NO.
I am NOT going over this again. Go re-read the threads. We've been over this before.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You never identified an in-born fault of tables.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Tables don't make good chairs.
;-j

Your zealous advocacy of tables makes me think that you don't see the value of using the right tool for the job.

The folks around here are pretty pragmatic. If you show them code that illustrates the value of your approach, and show them that your code is efficient in terms of cost of implementation, ease of modification in a team environment, and similar metrics, then you'll convince them. Until you do that, it's just handwaving. For example, Ben is a perl guru but enjoys [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=178359|Ruby]. Evidence of superiority will get you converts. Lack of evidence won't.

My $0.02. Carry on.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Vacuum Tubes
Evidence of superiority will get you converts. Lack of evidence won't.

Well, they are at least equal. The only clear faults you have shown are due QWERTY-syndrome: interfacing to a world geared toward outmoded ideas, such as hierarchical files. A lot of companies used to resist transistors because they had tons of tools for and investments in vacuum tubes.

ease of modification in a team environment, and similar metrics

Metrics? Did you actually count stuff, or use "it just feeeeels good to me".

Your zealous advocacy of tables

How is that worse than zealous advocacy of OOP or of Lisp ess-expressions? Plus, nobody can agree on when to use what.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New You can pry my tube guitar amp outta my cold, dead fingers.
I'll never use a transistor amp or digitally modelled piece of crap...because it just doesn't sound and react the same.

--
Steve
New Digital precision can be boring
That is because it has proven difficult to digitally model all the noise, distortion, vibrations, sub-vibribrations, and random chaos of old analog technology.

I heard a story of one guy in the late 50's who kept trying to get a certain rougher sound from his guitar. Once while in a new studio he stopped the recording session, grabbed a pen, walked over to the speakers and gouged them several times with the pen. Then he walked back to his guitar and plucked it to test the sound. He said, "Ah, now that's more like it."
________________
oop.ismad.com
Expand Edited by tablizer Nov. 22, 2004, 09:06:27 PM EST
New Yes - tubes are IT man
I have two copies of This Magic Moment by the Drifters. I have it on CD and can play it on modern stereo in all its digital perfection. It sounds kind of thin and inconsequential.

I also have a [link|http://www.pinballrebel.com/archive/wurlitzer/w1015/w1015.htm|1946 Wurlitzer 1015 jukebox] with some lovely 6L6 tubes and a single 15 inch speaker to play my 76 rpm version of the song. That one sends chills up my spine when I hear it.




"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:54:19 AM EDT
New Heh! That was my first bass amp!
My old man canibalized that very same amplifier, and the speaker that came with it, and built my first bass amp with it. Note that the speaker does not have a magnet; the amp powers an electromagnet built onto the speaker (which is why the amp must be mated with that speaker). Actually sounded good, but that being the late 60's, where volume was king (Like, when wasn't it in rock'n'roll land?), I could never get enough oomph out of it. (Even overdrove the front end with a pre-amp, which didn't actually help much...)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I don't know whether to be amused or appalled
at the canibalization of such a fine device.

My lone concession to modernity is addition of improved pre-amp that allows use of magnetic cartridge/needle combo. This lets the tone-arm track at about 3 grams rather than the original 22g!

Saves on record wear. This is a biggie as jukebox records are made of tougher stuff than consumer records were. They used much more recycled material (called "flash" - the excess stuff that gets trimmed from around the disk after it comes out of the mold). The high flash content makes them more brittle and also more wear resistant (good in a jukebox record).

Of course, much of my material is either consumer records bought at junk shops/antique store or re-issued vinyl (thank you Rhino records!) which is not nearly as tough as the old juke records.




"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:56:00 AM EDT
New Both actually
The device had already been "componentized" by the time he got it -- he just got the amp and speakers before the Original Disassembler got to throwing it out.

Although the price was right (and the 6L6GCs made a nice marshmallow roaster), It wasn't no [link|http://www.hendrixguitars.com/Images/Am022.jpg|Fender Bassman] (which is what I eventually replaced it with...).
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New In negotiations
I've got a ~'70 Fender Super Reverb and an '86 Marshall JCM 800 (both amps 50W). I'm trying to trade them in on an old '65 Twin Reverb. It'll need some work, but not more than about a hundred to a hundred and fifty bucks to get it right up to snuff.

I've got my fingers crossed; the person who own it is a crotchety ol' bastard AFAICT, judging by the reaction of the store guy (owner, and I've known him for a few years now) when he was discussing my offer with him.

I'm hoping I can land it.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Drooooooooool
good luck!
--
Steve
New Didn't get it
the guy decided when I made my offer that he suddenly wanted another three hundred bucks for it.... so fuck him.

The owner of the store pretty much said the same thing to him. He told me that I'd made the first serious offer in six months, that I was within 50 bucks of his stated price, and then suddenly the guy wanted 1750 instead of 1450. In short, he wanted the store owner's comission as well as more money from me. Apparently this is not the first time something like this has happened... so when the guy threatened to take his stuff to Toronto to sell it, the owner told him that maybe that'd be a better idea, and could he pick up his stuff on Friday?

Still sucks though; I was really looking forward to that amp.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Bum R!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Oh well.
I traded my 70 Super for a ~mid-70s Twin instead. That means I get to keep the Marshall. I'm going to get the local Tube Genius (his name's Clint) to do some reconditioning on it.

It's got a weird feature where you can pull the Master Volume and it'll boost the gain. Sounds really crappy actually. Since this one's a 100W Amp, I'm wondering if it might not be possible to use it to switch between using only two and four of the power tubes, so I could switch it between 50 and 100 watts depending on the size of the room. Only problem I can see is that the mod might be really expensive to realise.

One Of These Days I'm gonna have to learn how to read a circuit schematic.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Talk to your amp tech
Depending how your amp's wired, you can safely remove a pair to cut the power in half without any mods. No idea if that's possible on the twin, and if it is, which two would constitute a pair. Given the lethal voltages involved, i'd definitely consult an expert.
--
Steve
New Oh yeah
I know myself well enough to know that that's an area I DON'T want to go messing in.

That's all going to have to wait till after the holiday bills, though. What I'm kind of hoping to have happen is have a way that the master vol pull switch can be used to bring a pair of tubes online or offline. This way, the amp can be both a 50W and a 100W amp.

I really should learn how to read those diagrams... I could see how one could make money doing hand made custom built amps for the well heeled. I was talking to the local amp guy, and he said he could see doing one on commission, but that it would require some 2500 to 3000 bucks before he'd be interested.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Had a teacher who did that
Not custom amps, custom speakers for high-end stereos. His were the first I saw for home use that had the subwoofer separate from the mid/high speakers. The sub was a 2-foot cube that looked like an end table. The mid/highs were about 18 inches square and three inches deep and hung on the wall. They were as large as they were because they were packed with custom-built active crossovers, tuned to the room they were in. This was all before you could buy a tunable crossover.

For a system that you almost couldn't see the speakers unless you knew what you were looking for, it was amazing. Crystal clear even from next-door. And yes, he tested them that way.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Re: Talk to your amp tech
Heh, just passing through and see 'Vacuum Tubes' in a digitalist thread; suddenly it's 1960 again :-0

Well... you're talking about -literally- a 3 dB change in available average power ratio, especially at low frequencies [where most energy in the spectrum lies] depending on storage caps and PS 'stiffness', etc. - maybe a tad more than 3 dB difference for peaks.

You'd need the filaments on all the while, on the 'extra' output pair. But since the DC bias current through the output transformer windings affects its dynamic characteristics (ie B/H curve saturation) when it is "transforming", the power supply would have to regulate at both current levels too -- and, there's more.

ie, I think you're pining for a quite non-simple contrivance. Not clear what you think you're gaining - saving a pair of tubes? At the least, some load resistors at HV might have to be relay-switched, as would the plate leads for the spare-pair need to be opened/closed = sometimes under load* and without creating noise transients. Then there's the feedback loop, which must have correct values at both levels.

* which demands 'robust' relay contacts, which can suppress an arc.. and maybe some noise as they operate. the more I think of the consequences + how a tube amp operates:

I'd want $3K to make such a thing ~bulletproof, too - cheaper for a home-brew test box. Cheaper yet: leave them all on, all the time - and buy some spare output tubes for the next 100 years, for a lot less $. Your simple 'gain switch' could merely attenuate the input, at preamp/voltage level - no problem to contrive such a 'convenience switch', if you can find a push-pull pot/switch combo in today's Collector World [?] Prolly some of my Tek scope buddies could check their junk boxes.

(Also cool the suckers with a [big, slow ergo quiet] fan - something rarely thought of, even with high end amps in the golden era of Hi-Fi and of real engineers designing special xfmrs and stuff.)

My 3 kopeks.. ah then, nostalgia ain't what it -


moi
who recalls how shitty were the first 'solid state' audio 'components' -- and then the rise of Evangelical-Belief-audio with $2000 speaker cables. Barnum was .. well, you know. If I'd only saved a few Marantz Model 10s in factory boxes :(

PS - decidedly Lethal voltages/currents in these; some had >600V plate voltages with hundreds of mA capacity; enough joules to fibrillate even what passes for a heart in a Neoconman's sunken chest.
New What I'm gaining
is an amp that's sized appropriately for most of the rooms I play in. 100W is too much. Since tube amps have to have a certain minimal level of saturation before they really start to sing, you have to get a certain amount of flow through them to get it; that is, it sounds thin at 3, but rockin' at 7 (and at 11, well...;). However, with the amp at 100W, the typical club is not large enough to handle the volume, and you end up blowing the audience's hair back, not to mention trashing your own ears. Esp. with modern PA systems, small is beautiful... but OTOH, those old amps have a sound that most new ones just can't reproduce... or if they can, they cost 3 grand.

Anyway, I don't have the coin for it right now, so it's something that's going to wait for a while.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Have you considered an attenuator?
Basically a big honking resistor on the output of the amp prior to the speaker. Allows you to run the amp full bore if you want to really work those power tubes, yet reign in the volume with only a slight sacrifice to tone. The speakers themselves are part of the equation, and definitely have their sweet spot as well, so if you're constantly playing attenuated, you might invest in a second cabinet with speaks that have a sweet spot close the levels you need.
--
Steve
New Yes I have
and it may be the solution I go for. Haven't decided yet... and since I know they also cost a few hundred bucks it becomes a question of cost benefit.

One thing that might work... the Twin has 2 12" speakers, and my Marshall (50W) has one. An easier way to go about it might be to get an attenuator, and then put the output to one of the two speakers. That would pretty much put it on a par with the Marshall... which would be very good for a bi amp setup (when it's time to reeeaaalllyyy roooock oooouuuuut;). Good balance in power and amount of air being pushed... and I have an AB switch. Hmmmm... even better might be a stereo pan pedal or some such.

It'd prolly go a long way to heating my room, too;)
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New New thread time, maybe...?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New This might not cost a bundle.. (new thread)
Created as new thread #186231 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=186231|This might not cost a bundle..]
New Mesa Boogie Forever



"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."     --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."     --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:54:14 AM EDT
New That'll prolly be my second choice
if I can't get the Twin.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Feh! The Ultimate was...
...the [link|http://archive.bassplayer.com/gifs/0006/ngthat70.gif|Acoustic 360] (and its meatier, mightier sibling, the [link|http://www.alphamusicva.com/01Departments/10UsedGear/acoustic370/370fullfront.jpg|Acoustic 370])
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

     Time for good anti-OO battle to take minds off of election - (tablizer) - (77)
         Sorry cant go there - (daemon) - (32)
             How is being locked to a DB more evil than being locked to - (tablizer) - (31)
                 It's best to fit the tool to the job - (FuManChu) - (30)
                     Thanks for that ... +5 insightful - (drewk) - (6)
                         For various definitions of "start" ;) - (FuManChu)
                         On writing the "little language thing ..." - (systems) - (4)
                             Suggestion - (ben_tilly)
                             "Little Language" definition, components - (FuManChu) - (2)
                                 On what makes it easy to do little languages. - (JimWeirich) - (1)
                                     Good point. - (FuManChu)
                     Orthogonal to DB usage - (tablizer) - (22)
                         That's actually a good idea - (drewk) - (17)
                             *Snork* beat me to it :) -NT - (FuManChu)
                             Cure worse than the medicine. - (tablizer) - (15)
                                 "tends to bloat up code" - (admin) - (14)
                                     Your "solution" to such bloat was HQL, yes or no? -NT - (tablizer) - (13)
                                         It was a solution, yes. -NT - (admin)
                                         Since you seem to be slow... - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                                             I did NOT "lose". His solution was variation on SQL - (tablizer) - (10)
                                                 In your universe, perhaps - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                                     The mapper did not reduce his code size - (tablizer) - (8)
                                                         Bryce, you lost this one already. - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                             I did NOT fscken lose. He gave no code-size proof. Zilch. - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                 Why is code size your (apparently) sole criterion? - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                     You are welcome to present ANY metric you can justify - (tablizer) - (4)
                                                                         Thank you - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                             Usually people don't question those much - (tablizer)
                                                                         We've already been over change scenarios - (admin) - (1)
                                                                             re: We've already been over change scenarios - (tablizer)
                         "Orthogonal" in exactly the same sense as differential gears - (FuManChu) - (3)
                             You just shortened this thread by 200 posts. Cut & Paste. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 "[Nobody] ...points out that the cut-and-paste method... - (FuManChu)
                             No, you got me all wrong, dude - (tablizer)
         Repeat after me: - (admin) - (1)
             I never said OO was JUST about inheritance. - (tablizer)
         Amusing to note... - (JimWeirich) - (41)
             re: nouns and noun grouping - (tablizer) - (40)
                 Bryce: control tables are bad - (admin) - (37)
                     Time will erase performance differences - (tablizer) - (36)
                         That's not the main reason why they're bad. - (admin) - (35)
                             Because VC tools are hierarchy-biased. - (tablizer) - (34)
                                 Go read the thread. - (admin) - (33)
                                     You always talk as if I push a grand conspiracy - (tablizer) - (32)
                                         Relational has its place. - (admin) - (31)
                                             Math and Boolean expressions - (tablizer) - (30)
                                                 Ever use Zachary? - (admin) - (29)
                                                     I will believe it only when I see it with my own eyes - (tablizer) - (28)
                                                         - said the blind man (ducks and runs) -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                         NO. - (admin) - (26)
                                                             You never identified an in-born fault of tables. -NT - (tablizer) - (25)
                                                                 Tables don't make good chairs. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                                     Vacuum Tubes - (tablizer) - (23)
                                                                         You can pry my tube guitar amp outta my cold, dead fingers. - (Steve Lowe) - (22)
                                                                             Digital precision can be boring - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                                                 Yes - tubes are IT man - (tuberculosis) - (17)
                                                                                     Heh! That was my first bass amp! - (jb4) - (16)
                                                                                         I don't know whether to be amused or appalled - (tuberculosis) - (15)
                                                                                             Both actually - (jb4) - (14)
                                                                                                 In negotiations - (jake123) - (13)
                                                                                                     Drooooooooool - (Steve Lowe) - (12)
                                                                                                         Didn't get it - (jake123) - (11)
                                                                                                             Bum R! -NT - (jb4) - (10)
                                                                                                                 Oh well. - (jake123) - (9)
                                                                                                                     Talk to your amp tech - (Steve Lowe) - (8)
                                                                                                                         Oh yeah - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                                                             Had a teacher who did that - (drewk)
                                                                                                                         Re: Talk to your amp tech - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                                                                             What I'm gaining - (jake123) - (4)
                                                                                                                                 Have you considered an attenuator? - (Steve Lowe) - (3)
                                                                                                                                     Yes I have - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         New thread time, maybe...? -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                                         This might not cost a bundle.. (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                                             Mesa Boogie Forever -NT - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                 That'll prolly be my second choice - (jake123)
                                                                                 Feh! The Ultimate was... - (jb4)
                 re: nouns and noun grouping - (JimWeirich) - (1)
                     Can't do a whole lot with your hidden anecdotes - (tablizer)

No LRPD for you, one year!
227 ms